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What should the West do about Ukraine?

Starter: NightCruiser Posted: 10 years ago Views: 16.7K
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#4838291
Lvl 20
Sugarpie, in regards to speculating how the Russian dominated wealthy elite Asesembly of Crimea might vote, you wrote:

Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie

You can speculate that, but to say that its simply not the case may not be true.


Well, I can speculate that trying to breathe under water without assistance or tools might lead to drowning as well.

Some speculations are wild. Others are rooted in pretty good reasoning.

I can't prove that the sky is blue either, but anyone that claimed otherwise would be:

A) Arguing to argue
B) Sitting in philosophy 101
C) Not worth trying to reason with
D) In a 400+ level optical phenomena class at a university where, oddly, they'd be right - technically speaking. We'd still look at them like they were idiots if they said this in any other environment though because it's really not conducive to a reasonable discussion involving abstract concepts such as human behavior.
E) Some combination of the above

Yeah, there's a small amount of abstract reasoning that has to take place in order to be confident in what the outcome of a Crimean Assembly vote would result in, but a reasonable person who had relatively easy to find knowledge of the circumstance would be hard-pressed to argue otherwise. In all but the most extreme of technical discussions, this one's a pretty safe assertion.
* This post has been modified : 10 years ago
F1098 finds this awesome.
#4838297
Quote:
Originally posted by NightCruiser
Surgarpie, you just don't understand the American government. We are coming up on election time. Dems and Reps are pressuring Obama to react more strongly. Obama has added more sanctions today and there is talk of moving troops from Afghanistan to NATO member nations. NATO nations are living in fear. Ukraine says Russia is positioning it's troops to invade them. Putin has place more sanctions on the US. Will Putin lash out militarily if sanctions get too severe? Looks to me like things are escalating. Crimeans may have wanted to suck Putins dick but he didn't have to unzip his pants haha



1) The situation in Crimea has NOTHING to do with America...not a damn thing; unless they want it to. Quit being an egotistical American and stop thinking that the world revolves around you.
2) Again, a US election has NOTHING to do with the situation in Crimea
3) The sanctions are only against individuals in power, not a nation, a region, or an entire population.
4) The US is a NATO nation, are you living in fear, Canada is a NATO nation...I'm not living in fear, France is member of NATO...we probably should as Omuh if he's living in fear, but I'm guessing not. The Netherlands are a member of NATO....Hey Diz, are you living in fear?
5) The rest of your last comment just shows me how immature you are.
#4838298
Quote:
Originally posted by Tarquin
Sugarpie, in regards to speculating how the Russian dominated wealthy elite Asesembly of Crimea might vote, you wrote:

...

Well, I can speculate that trying to breathe under water without assistance or tools might lead to drowning as well.

Some speculations are wild. Others are rooted in pretty good reasoning.

I can't prove that the sky is blue either, but anyone that claimed otherwise would be:

A) Arguing to argue
B) Sitting in philosophy 101
C) Not worth trying to reason with
D) In a 400+ level optical phenomena class at a university where, oddly, they'd be right - technically speaking. We'd still look at them like they were idiots if they said this in any other environment though because it's really not conducive to a reasonable discussion involving abstract concepts such as human behavior.
E) Some combination of the above

Yeah, there's a small amount of abstract reasoning that has to take place in order to be confident in what the outcome of a Crimean Assembly vote would result in, but a reasonable person who had relatively easy to find knowledge of the circumstance would be hard-pressed to argue otherwise. In all but the most extreme of technical discussions, this one's a pretty safe assertion.


You may very well be right Tarquin, even after returning to the 1992 Constitution, Crimea may wish to seek re unification with Russia, but you could also be wrong. My point was simply that you stated it as fact, and thats not true. And even if it did happen, and you were correct...would that be so wrong? An elected body of government, working on behalf of the people deciding to re-join a nation that they were once part of? Why is that so bad?
#4838299
Quote:
Originally posted by F1098
Someone here correct me, but didn't Nikita Kruschev (sp?) give Crimea to the Ukraine in 1960 ?

In 1954 the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the Soviet Union transferred control of Crimean from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. The transfer was seen as a symbolic gesture to celebrate the 300th anniversary of Ukraine joining the Russian Empire. So yes...basically the USSR gave control over Crimea to Ukraine as a birthday present. Crimea has been fighting to rejoin Russia ever since.

Nikita Khrushchev was General Secretary of the Communist Party in Soviet Union at the time, and Khrushchev was a native Ukrainian.
#4838339
Lvl 18
There's always been violence in this world, there's always going to be violence in this world. Seems to be who's the toughest kid on the block scenario. Wars just suck because of all the innocent people that always get fucked over.
#4838367
Lvl 16
Quote:
Originally posted by Lia
...

If they truly want to be subject to the new Soviet Union then let them, I wish they wouldn't but what can we do if this is truly where they want to be. But I wouldn't be to surprised later to learn that not everything is how it appears. The western world had better keep a close eye on mr Putin and his resurrected Soviet Union. Those of us who's countries are a part of NATO had better not start tearing at each other with a paranoia not seen since the end of the cold war. Jus calm down and take a good hard look at what has happened and see it for what it is, not our imaginations.



Back in the 80's I would have totally agreed with you but now I'm more concerned about how corrupt our government has gotten.
#4838373
Quote:
Originally posted by Lia
...
I have to totally agree with you, my own government scares me as bad as some of these other government's .......



You should be. You talk about how bad Russia is, and call it the New Soviet Union...you should be looking at your own government too. The American government has invaded countries under the pretence that they harboured weapons, they fought wars over oil, and lied about spying on heir own citizens, illegally executed people without trial, held people captive for years without trial, and so on...all this in just the past decade or so. If you think Russia is scary, you also need to be taking a long hard look at Washington DC.
#4838388
Quote:
Originally posted by Lia
...

Every word that you say is true, the only thing that I can say in my own defense is that I voted Republican. And other parties that had viewpoints that I could agree with. SP you know where I stand jus from my posts, I don't think that I am a vicious person.

I never once said or thought you were a vicious person Lia, and I don't think you need to have a defence. You didn't commit these crimes, your government has...both Republican and Democrat.

All I'm saying is that many of us have this distorted view of our own government and governments around the world. As a non American, I just happen to think that many more Americans think their government is flawless when it comes to international affairs. I mean...I'm gonna use Bin Laden as an example, when he was executed there was celebration in the streets around America....and perhaps rightfully so. While Americans were celebrating, most of the rest of the world were wondering why he didn't get a trial. Don't get me wrong, I'm fairly sure that he most likely would have been convicted, and depending on where the trial was may have received the death penalty (discussion in a different thread); but he never received a trial....and most Americans thought this was ok. The only reason they thought it was ok, was because they believed he was guilty, they believed he was guilty for no other reason than their government said he was guilty...yet when your government says that the affordable heath care act is good thing, a huge percentage of you disagree, and want Obama gone, and protest in the street. My point being, (and I'm not trying to insult anyone) is that many Americans are very uneducated when it comes to the rest of the world, so you believe what your own government says, yet your own government is not always truthful, as I indicated above.

For decades America was taught that the USSR was evil and that given the chance, Russia would either take over the US or nuke you. You were taught that communism was evil and that given the chance it would spread like a virus, and that it was the USA's duty to stop this spread. You never were taught to look at it from the other side. What do you think the average Russian citizen thought of America during the cold war? I'll tell you what they thought, they thought that given the chance, USA would invade the USSR, and that Americans were war loving people. Both of these views are wrong. Both governments have flaws, and both governments have strengths. Before you say the Crimera people are crazy for wanting to re-join Russia, you need to educate yourself on the situation, and not just listen to what your or any government says.
#4838391
Lvl 59
Did you guys solve it yet?
[Deleted] finds this awesome.
#4838393
Lvl 59
I meant the Ukraine. Did you guys solve the Ukraine yet?
Bangledesh finds this awesome.
#4838398
Quote:
Originally posted by EricLindros
I meant the Ukraine. Did you guys solve the Ukraine yet?


Shattered beyond repair.
#4838519
Lvl 24
Quote:
Originally posted by Lia
...

There is nothing to solve as far as I am concerned, I was afraid that somewhere I over stepped my bounds, I was afraid of having said something that might have offended SP, I have no problems with her, I like her a lot.



We should create a Lia thread, just make everything a whole lot easier.
#4838526
Lvl 70
Quote:
Originally posted by EricLindros
I meant the Ukraine. Did you guys solve the Ukraine yet?

It looks like the answer to this thread was : send a cute lady to speak about Ukraine to divert the attention from real questions (according to this post). Would have never thought of that.
[Deleted] finds this awesome.
#4838547
Lvl 4
Sugarpie should study up on Russian/Soviet history where Soviet leaders slaughtered 100s of 1000s of their own people so they could stay in power. This is why countries familiar with Soviet history worry about KGB Putin. There is just no comparison of America at its worst vs Russia at its worst. The US defended Kuwait against an invasion by Iraq. Yes the worlds control of Oil is important. Yes Saddam did gas his own people the Kurds. That was the time to take out Saddam. I think Bush 2 just wanted to finish the job: Bush -1 seemed to know that would unleash sectarian violence and the coalition hadn't agreed to take out Saddam. Just to free Iraq. Bush 2 should have stayed with containing Saddam. Destroying Iraq and then having to rebuild it + the sectarian violence that still goes on today was not a good idea. Now Irans influence has grown in Iraq without Saddam around. So there was a lot to consider than Saddam being a murderous dictator. But the US did take out a Murderous dictator and his rotten family. The US was a big factor in stopping Hitler. The main factor in stopping Japan. The only factor in controlling Al queda/Bin Ladin religious fanatics. The USA has done a lot of good and made some mistakes along the way. The USA is a free country. Russia is an autocratic society. Putin went away and then he came back. Even when he went away he was running the country in the back ground. Our President is elected for 4 years and can run again possible be elected for 4 more years. But that is it. No possibility of dictators here. Everybody can be voted out. Just no comparison with the evil Russia can produce and has produced. In my opinion. History highlights that fact. Yea we dropped Nukes on Japan. But if the war had went on(and Japan was not about to surrender) there would have been a million more dead

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Purge. (Just one site of many on Soviet leaders horrendous acts in the past)

"The term "repression" was officially used to describe the prosecution of people considered counter-revolutionaries and enemies of the people by the leadership of the Soviet Union. The purge was motivated by the desire to remove dissenters from the Communist Party and to consolidate the authority of Joseph Stalin. Most public attention was focused on the purge of the leadership of the Communist Party, as well as of government bureaucrats and leaders of the armed forces, most of whom were Party members. The campaigns also affected many other categories of the society: intelligentsia, peasants and especially those branded as "too rich for a peasant" (kulaks), and professionals.[3] A series of NKVD (the Soviet secret police) operations affected a number of national minorities, accused of being "fifth column" communities. A number of purges were officially explained as an elimination of the possibilities of sabotage and espionage, mostly by a fictitious "Polish Military Organisation" and, consequently, many victims of the purge were ordinary Soviet citizens of Polish origin.

According to Nikita Khrushchev's 1956 speech, "On the Personality Cult and its Consequences," and more recent findings, a great number of accusations, notably those presented at the Moscow show trials, were based on forced confessions, often obtained by torture,[4] and on loose interpretations of Article 58 of the RSFSR Penal Code, which dealt with counter-revolutionary crimes. Due legal process, as defined by Soviet law in force at the time, was often largely replaced with summary proceedings by NKVD troikas.[5]

Hundreds of thousands of victims were accused of various political crimes (espionage, wrecking, sabotage, anti-Soviet agitation, conspiracies to prepare uprisings and coups); they were quickly executed by shooting, or sent to the Gulag labor camps. Many died at the penal labor camps of starvation, disease, exposure, and overwork. Other methods of dispatching victims were used on an experimental basis. One secret policeman, for example, gassed people to death in batches in the back of a specially adapted airtight van.[6][7]

The Great Purge was started under the NKVD chief Genrikh Yagoda, but the height of the campaigns occurred while the NKVD was headed by Nikolai Yezhov, from September 1936 to August 1938, hence the name Yezhovshchina. The campaigns were carried out according to the general line, and often by direct orders, of the Party Politburo headed by Stalin.

The Great Purge has provoked numerous debates about its purpose, scale and mechanisms. In the 1950s American scholars proposed a structural explanation of the Great Terror: as a totalitarian system, Stalin’s regime had to maintain its citizens in a state of fear and uncertainty, and recurrent random purging provided the mechanism (Brzezinski, 1958). Robert Conquest emphasized Stalin’s paranoia, focused on the Moscow show trial of “Old Bolsheviks”, and analyzed the carefully planned and systematic destruction of the Communist Party leadership as the first step toward terrorizing the entire population. In the mid-1980s, John Arch Getty, an American historian of the revisionist school, contested Conquest’s interpretation. He argued that the exceptional scale of the purges was the result of strong tensions between Stalin and regional Communist Party bosses who, in order to deflect the terror that was being directed at them, found innumerable scapegoats on which to carry out repressions. In this way, they demonstrated their vigilance and intransigence in the struggle against the common enemy. Thus, the Great Terror developed into a “flight into chaos” (Getty, 1985)./................."
#4838553
Lvl 4
Snowdon, of whatever his name is, highlighted NSA spying but other countries spy on us too. That is what spy agencies around the world do!. Everyone tries to get a hold of US technology. A lot of it is free to anyone on the Internet. Governments have always spied on each other. Today's friend could be tomorrows enemy. Every spy agency should have over sight and limits. The US has many internal checks and balances. You have the Secret Service, FBI, CIA etc. Most wrong doing gets found out sooner or later. After 9-11 things went to the other extreme. Very understandable because of how easy it was to make 9-11 happen
Now back to Ukraine. The real test is going to come as NATO puts more weaponry and man power in NATO countries near Russia. These countries want assurance that we will defend them if Russia decides to expand even more. Will be interesting to see how Putin reacts
I am not for war. I am for making sure Putin knows there will be a high price to pay for any future invasions( I know Sugarpie says it wasn't an invasion). Looks like Germany and other European are not interested in economic sanctions just yet. Too much trade involved with Russia for them. I am sure Putin takes joy in that lack of resolve. Sanctions could prevent war. Not may in the USA want another war IMO
#4838556
Lvl 16
Quote:
Originally posted by EricLindros
Did you guys solve it yet?


Yes, I say we (the USA) stay out of foreign affairs and mind our own business. This is the same message I have been saying my whole life, but then people think I'm a nutter.
#4838557
Lvl 4
Well, we were trying to stay out of foreign affairs and mind our own business. But Germany and Japan had other ideas. Germany used their U-boats to sink our ships and Japan bombed pearl harbor. Shows to ignore the world at your peril. That is the lesson we learn and if you don't learn from mistakes then you are destined to repeat them as the old saying goes
#4838562
Lvl 59
Do you have any other examples that aren't more than 70 years old?
[Deleted], Bangledeshica find this awesome.
#4838564
Lvl 4
Russia is still acting like it was 70 years ago. Read up and see what their business people are saying--off the record of course, because they are AFRAID! Just because we have changed doesn't mean Russia and countries like China have changed the way they govern. Putin changed a leader in the Press because he said the Press views should reflect positively on the Federation and the Federations views--only
#4838565
Lvl 16
Quote:
Originally posted by NightCruiser
Well, we were trying to stay out of foreign affairs and mind our own business. But Germany and Japan had other ideas. Germany used their U-boats to sink our ships and Japan bombed pearl harbor. Shows to ignore the world at your peril. That is the lesson we learn and if you don't learn from mistakes then you are destined to repeat them as the old saying goes


And we cut off Japan's access to resources so this meant an attack was eminent. Looking back at history most wars are started over two parties fighting for the same natural resources.
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