What should the West do about Ukraine?

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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True, but there is lots of circumstantial evidence. Video of people celebrating, interviews with average citizens, not to mention their past history and attempts at self government and attempts at rejoining Russia in the past.

It's really easy to make a video showing whatever you want and interviews are the poorest way of making a point, fact wise (even though our TV news use them very often). One guy (or one group of people) in the street isn't really representative of anything.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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I agree that the build up of forces along the border is troublesome, but at this point it doesn't mean that Russia is poised to try and take over the entire Ukraine, it could just mean that they are preparing to defend what they believe is theirs. I 100% believe that its the will of the majority in Crimea to rejoin Russia. Why else would they have invited Russian troops to be there the last decade, why else would they elect pro reunification leaders, why else would they denounce the direction the Ukraine has taken the last several years?

I guess it all comes to know if the opinion we heard from Crimea is genuine or not. I'm not thinking it's all wrong and they didn't want to rejoin Russia, I'm just wondering. At this point, it's more a matter of intuition as it's pretty hard to get straight facts.

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

Meee delusional?! You're such a bad girl Sugarpie. I like it!

You forgot "little" and "angry" too

But she's right about the military bases. You'd have to be naive to think that the only purpose of American bases / prisons etc. all around the the world is only logistical and for the world own "good". Not the mention all the mercenaries and private factions that are also in action and contracted by the US.

omuh.
Yea the USA has taken a lead role in the War on Terrorism. Just where do you think we should keep enemy combatants from the war on terror? Many of whom think suicide bombings of civilians is a good thing. Flying planes into buildings full of people is a good thing. That they will be rewarded in Heaven. Intent is the key word here. The people on the front lines in the war sure can't testify in court. Intelligence gathering techniques can't be disclosed in a civilian court. Just a something we haven't figured out yet. Would you want these types in your Country? If countries care so much about these people then maybe we can hand them over to you. I haven't seen any other country ask for them. Just my opinion

....and your point is?

And as I've mentioned countless other times, the US is not the only nation involved in the war on terror, and hasn't been since the start of the first Desert Storm. The US is the only nation taking prisoners, and they aren't being held at different bases around the world, they're being held in Cuba, so the US doesn't have to honour the Geneva Convention.

Open your eyes and quit watching Fox news, and most of all quit being a egotistical and uninformed know it all American that the rest of the world hates.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Open your eyes and quit watching Fox news, and most of all quit being a egotistical and uninformed know it all American that the rest of the world hates.

♫ What does Fox News say : ♪ ShitShitShit CrapCrap CrapCrapCrap ♪

I don't watch FOX news. Never have watched FOX. I do watch CNN from time to time. CNN has changed to mostly National enquirer/Hollywood type entertainment type shows. The New leader of CNN is all about the ratings. I read a lot of different news website. I am for a woman's right to have an abortion and other things that do not fit a FOX watcher. Yea FOX is owned by a Rupert Murdoch--right?. A Billionaire who doesn't even live in America, I think. FOX has divided this Country like the civil war did. They are promoters of the far right republican party propaganda. I haven't heard of any other country that has Killed as many terrorist with Drones than we have. No other country has taken credit for any drone attacks? I didn't say we were the only country fighting the war on terrorism. The Geneva convention haha good one Sugarpie. The enemy doesn't give a rats ass about the UN or the Geneva convention or the rules of war. Where is it in any rule of war that you attack 2 buildings full of office workers?

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

I don't watch FOX news. Never have watched FOX. I do watch CNN from time to time. CNN has changed to mostly National enquirer/Hollywood type entertainment type shows. The New leader of CNN is all about the ratings. I read a lot of different news website. I am for a woman's right to have an abortion and other things that do not fit a FOX watcher. Yea FOX is owned by a Rupert Murdoch--right?. A Billionaire who doesn't even live in America, I think. FOX has divided this Country like the civil war did. They are promoters of the far right republican party propaganda. I haven't heard of any other country that has Killed as many terrorist with Drones than we have. No other country has taken credit for any drone attacks? I didn't say we were the only country fighting the war on terrorism. The Geneva convention haha good one Sugarpie. The enemy doesn't give a rats ass about the UN or the Geneva convention or the rules of war. Where is it in any rule of war that you attack 2 buildings full of office workers?

What does Rupert Murdoch not being an American have to do with owning Fox? Can't non Americans own businesses in America?

And again...what do drones have to do with anything? Thousands of non American troops have been killed in the war on terror.

There is no rule in war saying its ok to attack 2 buildings and kill thousands of innocent people...I never once claimed that. But ignoring the Geneva Convention, locking people up without charging them with anything, torturing people for information, brainwashing them, executing people without a trial makes you no better then the so called terrorists that you're trying to rid the world of.

I didn't like the idea of water boarding or torturing. We declared a war on terrorism and that includes terrorist. So in the rules of war, terrorist can be targeted for death. Praise be to Allah!


http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-26/russia-s-aggression-challenges-obama-s-foreign-policy.html

Sharing Burdens

What Rice called Russia’s “very egregious departure” from international norms is only one challenge Obama now faces in Europe.

Another is his hope that the European democracies would begin to share more of the U.S.’s global burdens. In 2009, Obama told the United Nations that dealing with the world’s problems “cannot solely be America’s endeavor.”

The 2011 insurrection against Libyan dictator Muammar Qaddafi provided an opportunity for the U.S. to lead its European allies “from behind,” as the approach was described at the time, although it had to provide the capacity to defend a wider no-fly zone than France or the U.K. could provide. Two years later, when France moved troops into Mali to fight Islamic militants, it required U.S. help for air transport and intelligence.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

I don't watch FOX news. Never have watched FOX. I do watch CNN from time to time. CNN has changed to mostly National enquirer/Hollywood type entertainment type shows. The New leader of CNN is all about the ratings. I read a lot of different news website. I am for a woman's right to have an abortion and other things that do not fit a FOX watcher. Yea FOX is owned by a Rupert Murdoch--right?. A Billionaire who doesn't even live in America, I think. FOX has divided this Country like the civil war did. They are promoters of the far right republican party propaganda. I haven't heard of any other country that has Killed as many terrorist with Drones than we have. No other country has taken credit for any drone attacks? I didn't say we were the only country fighting the war on terrorism. The Geneva convention haha good one Sugarpie. The enemy doesn't give a rats ass about the UN or the Geneva convention or the rules of war. Where is it in any rule of war that you attack 2 buildings full of office workers?

I do watch Fox News all of the time, and I read the Drudge Report everyday as well as several other newspapers. If you have paid attention MSNBC and CNN are jus as toxically anti-conservative as Fox is conservative. NightCruiser says "FOX has divided this Country like the civil war did. They are promoters of the far right republican party propaganda." is it propaganda or is it the truth? I think that they are more honest than most of the liberal mouthpieces are.

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Originally posted by Lia

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I do watch Fox News all of the time, and I read the Drudge Report everyday as well as several other newspapers. If you have paid attention MSNBC and CNN are jus as toxically anti-conservative as Fox is conservative. NightCruiser says "FOX has divided this Country like the civil war did. They are promoters of the far right republican party propaganda." is it propaganda or is it the truth? I think that they are more honest than most of the liberal mouthpieces are.

I completely agree with you that just as Fox has one point of view, other news networks have other points of view, and that for the most part, Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC are not news stations at all, but are infotainment at best. If you're watching any of these stations for your news, then you aren't getting it...you're getting someones opinion disguised as the news. The reason I picked on Fox, is that unlike the other two, Fox in addition to giving their opinion also have been known to outright lie at times.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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I completely agree with you that just as Fox has one point of view, other news networks have other points of view, and that for the most part, Fox News, CNN, and MSNBC are not news stations at all, but are infotainment at best. If you're watching any of these stations for your news, then you aren't getting it...you're getting someones opinion disguised as the news. The reason I picked on Fox, is that unlike the other two, Fox in addition to giving their opinion also have been known to outright lie at times.

That is why I like to read the newspapers, I can get information from numerous places around the country and the world.

Well, I think they are all crap. Election years and events such as the missing airliner bring out the worst in them. One produces out right lies and the other produces such goofy commentary from people who display a complete lack of understanding of high school physics that it is....amazing in it's ignorance. (But speaking of ignorance, the tipping point with me on Fox news is the pandering to the anti-science crowd. )

God bless you America. You are a population of easily swayed minds with zero critical judgment.

F1098. that is a big paint brush to label all 300 and something Million Americans as "easily swayed minds with zero critical judgement" People hate America so much then why is there a waiting list to get in? Why are there 20 million illegals(from all around the world including many Russians) in America?
I am not talking about you Lia but a lot of racist people gravitate to FOX because we have a Black Prez. America(especially the older generation) was just not ready for a black President. I talk to many people and see a good many comments on news articles. So many racist comments that I hear first hand. They just slip out from people that don't know that I think Obama does a pretty good job over all. I am not at all happy with everything he has done but he is a step up from Bush 2. He has been pushed around by the far left in certain areas ie the extreme environmental regulations etc. But those that are uncomfortable with a Black president are willing to believe ANYthing and FOX is more than willing to feed that anything. That Obama is Kenyan, socialist,communist, Muslim, ignorant, stupid, loves illegals etc etc. You name it, FOX has promoted it and people eat that up. Some sit there with FOX on all day and night. They sit in fear of Obama. In reality, Obama is highly educated. Has directed the killing and capturing of more terrorist that Bush 2 ever dreamed of. Has deported a record number of illegals. Has avoided getting us into another war. The economy crashed before he got into office and now it has greatly improved. The are now a record number of millionaires being created in America--Google it! The Annual budget is close to being balanced. The Federal Reserve is the ones doing all the borrowing to stimulate the economy. That is going to stop after this year because the economy has greatly improved--Google it! But you won't see this positive stuff on FOX "news" Just my opinion

Back to Ukraine. From that article I posted, you get the idea that Governments think Putin will want to keep on expanding Russia. So this is not just about Crimea. They think, if there is no price to pay, that Putin will want to put back together the Soviet Union. I have said that before. Putin has said he is really unhappy about the break up of the USSR. He said Russia now gets little respect from the West. So why shouldn't the west believe he will do what it takes to put the USSR back together? I think Russia sees the hand writing on the wall. They see the world becoming less dependent on Oil and natural gas in the future as alternative sources of energy becomes available. Russia is very dependent on oil and natural gas sales. I think that is one reason Russia wants to expand and diversify. If there is no price to pay then it would be very tempting to keep on annexing countries that have some value to the USSR. Just my opinion

[reply=NightCruiser

I am not talking about you Lia but a lot of racist people gravitate to FOX because we have a Black Prez. America(especially the older generation) was just not ready for a black President.

. That Obama is Kenyan, socialist,communist, Muslim, ignorant, stupid, loves illegals etc etc. You name it, FOX has promoted it and people eat that up. Some sit there with FOX on all day and night.[/reply]

Thank you NightCruiser for not including me into the paranoid masses. I only catch headlines on Fox and I like to watch The Five and once in a while late at night I'll watch Red Eye if I can't sleep, sometimes its good for a laugh. I get my news from many sources from papers like my little hometown paper so I know bout the local happenings back home, The Detroit News and the Free Press I frequently read, as well as the Drudge Report. I read the NY Times and the Washington newspapers, and my local paper here in Pa, and other local papers from Cleveland, Charlotte, Atlanta, LA, and Pittsburgh. I try to get as much unbiased information as I can from anywhere that I can.

And about the President being an American, the Constitution is pretty clear. As long as his mother was an American Citizen it doesn't matter where he was born that makes him an American Citizen Period. So I wish these paranoids would except that, it's the law PERIOD!!!!

That is a good way to do it Lia. I do that too. The NYT gives away 10 articles a month. The NYT is one of the best newspapers with lots of different viewpoints. No matter what Obama does, it is not good enough. What he does do they would do differently. Some right wing politicians come right out and say their job is to bring Obama down. They pushed Obama to bring sanctions and even war against Russia and then when he does the sanctions they bash him for not bringing harsher sanctions. War? That is crazy talk, but the idea is to make Obama look weak. Health care? Romney had a health care plan in his state. Health care in the US was going bankrupt. Obama tried to fix that and now his is called a "socialist". I didn't like being made to buy health care either but going to the emergency room for free health care was bankrupting the system and many were doing that.
Politicians say Obama is so weak that Putin felt it was a good time to annex Ukraine. Well Putin took a part of Georgia during the Bush 2 administration. The far right has NO answers to our problem except lobbing bombs. They want to protect fetuses but don't give a shit about Children who don't have access to affordable health care.
I don't feel good about giving $Billions to Ukraine when they could not manage previous monies. Probably spend it on Hookers and liquor haha I am not all that sympathetic toward that country but more concerned about the threat of Russian expansion. Just my opinion
You sound like a well informed person Lia

Quote:

Originally posted by F1098

God bless you America. You are a population of easily swayed minds with zero critical judgment.

Yeah really! The level of ignorance here is utterly mind boggling and those few who do realize they are completely ignorant are proud of it!

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Back to Ukraine. From that article I posted, you get the idea that Governments think Putin will want to keep on expanding Russia. So this is not just about Crimea. They think, if there is no price to pay, that Putin will want to put back together the Soviet Union. I have said that before. Putin has said he is really unhappy about the break up of the USSR. He said Russia now gets little respect from the West. So why shouldn't the west believe he will do what it takes to put the USSR back together? I think Russia sees the hand writing on the wall. They see the world becoming less dependent on Oil and natural gas in the future as alternative sources of energy becomes available. Russia is very dependent on oil and natural gas sales. I think that is one reason Russia wants to expand and diversify. If there is no price to pay then it would be very tempting to keep on annexing countries that have some value to the USSR. Just my opinion

Well if some politician wants to invade Ukraine (or Russia) I agree with trends forecaster Gerald Celente in that this politician should go lead the charge otherwise leave me out of your power trip.

I agree. No American, Canadian etc should be forced to die for Ukraine. Putin called Obama yesterday so some of his rich Cronies are hurting from the Sanctions and the threat of more Sanctions. They are losing $Billions. The US made a proposal to end the crisis. I doubt if Putin will withdraw from Crimea. With civil war breaking out in the East(probably helped along by Russian agents), it is likely Russia will move in. More sanctions. We are just Lucky that McCain and Palin or Romney are not in charge

Paranoid politicians scare me.......

Quote:

Originally posted by Lia

Paranoid politicians scare me.......

A paranoid public scares me more.