Score: 3.00 Votes: 2
rate this

What should the West do about Ukraine?

Starter: NightCruiser Posted: 10 years ago Views: 16.7K
  • Goto:
#4837709
Quote:
Originally posted by NightCruiser
...

Those people who want to go to Russia are free to go to Russia. But Russia is NOT free to annex a part of another country. Take their land. Maybe if some Canadian vote to be a part of the USA, we will just annex a part of Canada and really there is not a dayum thing your military could do about it. See how you feel about that happening in your own back yard. Plan for the worst and hope for the best..
Putin hates Gays btw:
[Link]

"Russia's Anti-Gay Law, Spelled Out in Plain English
August 8, 2013



On June 30 this year, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed into law a bill banning the "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to minors," thus opening a new, dark chapter in the history of gay rights in Russia. The law caps a period of ferocious activities by the Russian government aimed at limiting the rights of the country’s lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex people.

The violations of fundamental, constitutionally protected rights of Russia’s gay citizens have included multiple bans on gay pride parades in Moscow and other cities, hefty fines to gay rights groups accused of acting as a “foreign agent,” denial of registration to nongovernmental organizations, and regional laws banning the propaganda of homosexuality to minors, which served as a basis for the federal law enacted by Mr. Putin and unanimously passed by the State Duma. Against this backdrop, violent attacks on gays or “suspect gays” are becoming commonplace.

The state-sponsored initiatives relied on ludicrous assumptions. For example, the regional bans on propaganda of homosexuality equated same-sex relations with pedophilia even though the former has been legal since 1993 and the latter is, of course, a serious crime. The court decision denying registration to Sochi Pride House states that “propaganda of nontraditional sexual orientation” is a direct threat to Russian society, while calling attempts to confront homophobia “extremist” because they inherently “incite social and religious hatred.” Essentially, the court ruled that gays incite hatred toward themselves and should be “protected” from doing so. The court went on to argue that such extremist activities present a threat to “Russia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.” The Russian government uses these flawed arguments when it defends its discriminatory ways to an international audience. Russian diplomats are fond of saying that discrimination does not exist in Russia because the country’s constitution forbids it. Some logic!

Russia’s courts and diplomats — and President Putin — cannot be trusted to explain the status of gay rights in the country, but the European Court of Human Rights can. In April 2011, the Strasbourg court fined Russia for violating articles 11, 13, and 14 of the European Convention by banning 164 pride events and marches between 2006 and 2008. The unanimous decision in Alekseyev v. Russia came into force after the Russian government lost its appeal in Strasbourg, yet although the Kremlin paid the fine, they continued to ban pride rallies. In May 2012, a district court in Moscow issued a ruling banning such events in the city until May 2112. That’s Russia’s approach: pay the fine, admit nothing, and make things worse.................."


If the people of a part of a country vote to join another country than who are we to say they can't? Russia isn't annexing anything...THEY VOTED to rejoin Russia. If part of Canada VOTED to join the US, and the US was fine with it, then why is that a problem? Yeah it might suck for the rest of Canada, just as it might for Ukraine, but its what the people want. If anything, its democracy at its purest.

As for the whole gay thing....yeah, I know....I'm gay. Please don't post totally irrelevant dribble thats sole purpose is to get under my skin.
#4837725
While maybe not an entirely fair vote, this doesn't really look like people being coerced into voting one way or the other.
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26606097
#4837785
Lvl 4
Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie
...

If the people of a part of a country vote to join another country than who are we to say they can't? Russia isn't annexing anything...THEY VOTED to rejoin Russia. If part of Canada VOTED to join the US, and the US was fine with it, then why is that a problem? Yeah it might suck for the rest of Canada, just as it might for Ukraine, but its what the people want. If anything, its democracy at its purest.

As for the whole gay thing....yeah, I know....I'm gay. Please don't post totally irrelevant dribble thats sole purpose is to get under my skin.


I think you said in a post awhile back that your life wouldn't be changed if Russia took over Canada? Well Putin has made a Gay persons life in Russia a nightmare.
Some of you just don't get it. One Russian government media mouth piece said Russia still remains the only country that could turn the United States into a radioactive wasteland. He wouldn't have said that without government approval. If the US is attacked by Nukes then the radioactive fallout would effect the entire North American continent. Just the fact that another country is threatening to Nuke us to get it's way makes this a much bigger issue than just Ukraine. One NATO General says that country taking over another one and then black mailing the world hasn't happened since WW2. NATO either agrees to not let in Ukraine or else Russia will take control of all of Ukraine. According to the east Russian agents are stirring up trouble as a pretext to take over the rest of Ukraine. You just don't want conflict between Nuclear powers. Things can spiral out of control pretty quickly. NATO says it won't back down. Russia made the Nuke threat because they know that can't win a war against NATO. NATO cannot appear weak in the eyes of the rest of the world. So NATO won't back down and then Putin will attack the Eastern Part of Ukraine. The East says they will defend themselves. More sanctions and who knows what else
#4837790
Lvl 16
Quote:
Originally posted by NightCruiser
...

Those people who want to go to Russia are free to go to Russia. But Russia is NOT free to annex a part of another country. Take their land. Maybe if some Canadian vote to be a part of the USA, we will just annex a part of Canada and really there is not a dayum thing your military could do about it. See how you feel about that happening in your own back yard. Plan for the worst and hope for the best..


Umm you do know that here in the good ol' US we kept annexing land from the Native Americans as we discovered precious resources on the land they were being herded onto by the business end of a gun?
#4837791
Lvl 4
Quote:
Originally posted by unknown1002001
...

Umm you do know that here in the good ol' US we kept annexing land from the Native Americans as we discovered precious resources on the land they were being herded onto by the business end of a gun?


Ya I am part Native American so get out haha. That was way before we become more civilized and therefore International laws were made to prevent conflicts.
#4837794
Lvl 59
You heard it here first, folks. There were no international laws in the 18th century.
[Deleted] finds this awesome.
#4837798
Quote:
Originally posted by NightCruiser
...

I think you said in a post awhile back that your life wouldn't be changed if Russia took over Canada? Well Putin has made a Gay persons life in Russia a nightmare.
Some of you just don't get it. One Russian government media mouth piece said Russia still remains the only country that could turn the United States into a radioactive wasteland. He wouldn't have said that without government approval. If the US is attacked by Nukes then the radioactive fallout would effect the entire North American continent. Just the fact that another country is threatening to Nuke us to get it's way makes this a much bigger issue than just Ukraine. One NATO General says that country taking over another one and then black mailing the world hasn't happened since WW2. NATO either agrees to not let in Ukraine or else Russia will take control of all of Ukraine. According to the east Russian agents are stirring up trouble as a pretext to take over the rest of Ukraine. You just don't want conflict between Nuclear powers. Things can spiral out of control pretty quickly. NATO says it won't back down. Russia made the Nuke threat because they know that can't win a war against NATO. NATO cannot appear weak in the eyes of the rest of the world. So NATO won't back down and then Putin will attack the Eastern Part of Ukraine. The East says they will defend themselves. More sanctions and who knows what else


I said my life wouldn't be any different if Russia took over Ukraine...and more specifically Crimea.

You can stop your crazy non factual nuke rant now.
#4837810
Lvl 70
Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie
...

If the people of a part of a country vote to join another country than who are we to say they can't? Russia isn't annexing anything...THEY VOTED to rejoin Russia. If part of Canada VOTED to join the US, and the US was fine with it, then why is that a problem? Yeah it might suck for the rest of Canada, just as it might for Ukraine, but its what the people want. If anything, its democracy at its purest.

As for the whole gay thing....yeah, I know....I'm gay. Please don't post totally irrelevant dribble thats sole purpose is to get under my skin.

The problem is that for a vote to be valid, it has to be cast by a legitimate entity, in this case the Ukrainian government. Russia and the people in Crimea who organized the vote had no right to do so and that's why no one is considering the referendum as valid and that's also probably why we can consider the result as biased : would you vote if some random people organized a fake vote about something you're not into ? Nope.

I get the whole democracy point but without proper settings and considering the propaganda power of Russia and the military forces deployed in Crimea, I'm pretty sure it's just a parody of it that we saw with that vote.
#4837815
Lvl 4
Well I looked back but couldn't find for sure what you said Sugarpie so thanks for clarifying that. But anyway, anytime the Super powers have a confrontation there is a chance for Nukes. Russia only has a $3 Trillion economy. The US has a $16 Trillion economy and a much large Military budget. We have many top secret weapons. So Russia would lose and be very tempted to resort to Nukes
#4837824
OMG, when will you understand that this has nothing to do with "superpowers facing off"? It has nothing more to do with the US, then it does with The UK, or France, or Norway. The Russians aren't threatening the US with nukes, just as they aren't threatening any country with nukes.
#4837825
Lvl 8
Yeah, this thread has turned into a cold war nuclear propaganda thread.
#4837826
Quote:
Originally posted by omuh
...
The problem is that for a vote to be valid, it has to be cast by a legitimate entity, in this case the Ukrainian government. Russia and the people in Crimea who organized the vote had no right to do so and that's why no one is considering the referendum as valid and that's also probably why we can consider the result as biased : would you vote if some random people organized a fake vote about something you're not into ? Nope.

I get the whole democracy point but without proper settings and considering the propaganda power of Russia and the military forces deployed in Crimea, I'm pretty sure it's just a parody of it that we saw with that vote.

Regardless of the legality of the vote many news sources are confirming that the majority of people in Crimea voted, and they voted overwhelmingly in favour of rejoining Russia. It may not have followed the rules of the Ukrainian government, but then again, those people basically don't want to recognize that government anymore. It's no different in that aspect then the US civil war or the French Revolution.
#4837842
Lvl 4
Why did a Russian news media anchor say that Russia is the only power that could turn the US into "Radioactive ashes"? The Russian news media has pretty much been turned over to the Government for propaganda purposes
#4837852
Quote:
Originally posted by NightCruiser
Why did a Russian news media anchor say that Russia is the only power that could turn the US into "Radioactive ashes"? The Russian news media has pretty much been turned over to the Government for propaganda purposes


How am I supposed to know why a news anchor said what? American media say stupid things every day.

Why did Bill O’Reilly say that Asian people aren't liberals because they are hard working and industrious?
Why did Liz Trotta say that women serving in the military should expect to be raped?
Why did Fox News claim that Obama's 2009 budget was 4 times higher than any Bush budget, when it simply wasn't true?

Who knows why the media does what they do at times. But let me ask you this. Is the Russian reporter wrong? No. With maybe the addition of China, Russia is on the only country that could turn the US into radioactive ashes. That doesn't mean that it came from the Russian government. When you see Putin saying those things directly, then thats the time to worry.
#4837937
Lvl 20
When was the last time a genuine democracy voted 97% in favor of anything?

It reminds me of how Saddam Hussein and Yassar Arafat always won with 95% of the vote.

Obama got 51% of the popular vote and Romney got 47% of the vote - a difference of two points, or four percent.

And that was one of the ten largest landslides in the history of the United States.
F1098 finds this awesome.
#4837948
I don't think any of us believe the vote was 100% legit and thats unfortunate, but I still strongly believe the results echo the peoples opinion.
#4837977
Lvl 20
Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie
I don't think any of us believe the vote was 100% legit and thats unfortunate, but I still strongly believe the results echo the peoples opinion.


It's possible. Can you explain what it is that makes you feel this decision represents the choice the people would have made had they been given the chance to make it?
#4837991
Lvl 4
Ya see in Sugarpies naive mind, you send in Russian government agents to stir the fear pot and trouble. Then you send in Russian troops to surround the masses. Then you call it a fair vote. Putin is from the Soviet KGB era of population control by propaganda and fear. Already Russian agents are in East Ukraine stirring up trouble as a prelude to the next invasion. The Russian press is not free to say what they want Sugarpie. Recently a Russian lady anchor was speaking out against the Ukrainian invasion and was then fired. She was then rehired because it was too obvious why she was fired. Lots of Russian anchors have been replaced by propagandist.
Why are small countries so worried about the attack on Ukraine? They know Russia best. They border Russia. They are upset that the west response was very weak. No Sugarpie is not worried. She is protected from Russia by USA Military next door. Sorry but the Canadian Military would be no match for Russia. The US has a cat and mouse game going on concerning who controls the Arctic etc
But anyway here is an article concerning the fear the smaller countries next to Russia have:

http://bigstory.ap.org/article/putins-backyard-nations-look-west-support

Quote:
"VILNIUS, Lithuania (AP) — After moving to annex Crimea, Russian President Vladimir Putin insists he has no intention of invading other regions in Ukraine, much less other nations. But leaders in Russia's backyard aren't so sure, and they're looking to Vice President Joe Biden for assurances that the U.S. has a plan to prevent that from happening.
...





Copying and pasting an entire article is a copyright violation. Don't do it.
EL
* This post has been modified by EricLindros : 10 years ago
#4837992
Lvl 20
While I asked Sugarpie to share what her thoughts were on why she believes that the majority of Crimean residents would have wanted to join Russia, I did so because I wanted to hear her points in the conversation, not because I disagree with her.

It's entirely possible that the vote would have gone towards this outcome given the demographics of the region. It's also likely given that only those with a passport (meaning those approved for travel and with the money and resources to obtain such documents) are allowed to vote.

Piled on top of this is that the only option allowed on a ballot for this referendum was "Yes, we should join Russia."

Given those circumstances, it's likely this outcome would have come about even in an election where they weren't lying their asses off about the vote totals.

Now make the question more fair and allow everyone (not just the wealthy with ties and obligations to Russia) vote, and you might see a different outcome, but under this set of circumstances and given how Russia conducts "votes" for their electors, I think Sugarpie is probably right.

I was hoping to hear her reasons though, as there may be some I missed and thus something for me to learn.
#4837993
Lvl 4
I am sure you will here her side of it Tarquin. I am not a moderator. I am not and cannot block her from posting.
  • Goto: