What should the West do about Ukraine?

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Russia is still acting like it was 70 years ago. Read up and see what their business people are saying--off the record of course, because they are AFRAID! Just because we have changed doesn't mean Russia and countries like China have changed the way they govern. Putin changed a leader in the Press because he said the Press views should reflect positively on the Federation and the Federations views--only

I'll take that as a "no."

I mean, I hope it's not lost on you that the two things you compared Russia's Crimea excursion to happened so long ago as to not be relevant on today's international stage, and furthermore, both involved sovereign nations, you know, ATTACKING THE UNITED STATES. Last I checked Ukraine wasn't in the United States.

Seriously...live in the now. The Russia of today is not the USSR of the 30's when the great purge took place. Listen...I'm not saying that living in Russia is full of unicorns and rainbows, I'm saying that if a country or part of a country that used to be part of Russia, wants to rejoin Russia, then what's the problem? Who are we to say they can't? You're ideals that Russia is this big bad super power that ready to take over the world are simply not true anymore.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/ukraine-crisis-city-rallies-for-a-russia-referendum-1.2582718
The above article is about a city in Eastern Ukraine that wants to rejoin Russia. They've seen the vote in Crimea, and without any influence from Russia, want to rejoin. There are no troops on the ground, there is nobody holding guns to their heads and telling them what to do...they just WANT this. Wake up and realize that your ideas of Russia are 70-100 years old.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Sugarpie should study up on Russian/Soviet history

Ummm...I have. A lot. I'm just not using examples from 80 years ago of a USSR long gone.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

]There is just no comparison of America at its worst vs Russia at its worst.

You sure you want to go there?
- Its widely accepted that the American slave trade killed 30-60 million slaves, and some estimates put that number closer to 100 million.
- 150,000 to 250,000 killed in the Hiroshima and Nagasaki bomb drops
- My Lai Massacre in which 500 unarmed South Vietnamese citizens (mostly women and children) were gunned down by American forces. Many of them beaten, raped, and mutilated.
- Hundreds if not thousands held at Guantanamo Bay for years without a trial
- Execution of several members of Al-Qaeda without trial.

Look, I'm not saying the US is evil, but you guys have had your fair share of WTF moments.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

The US was a big factor in stopping Hitler.

Not as big as England, France, or India...but yes, together with troops from around the world US forces helped defeat Hitler.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

The only factor in controlling Al queda/Bin Ladin religious fanatics.

You seem to have forgotten about the thousands of troops from the UK, Denmark, Australia, Canada, Italy, Poland, Ukraine Netherlands, and Spain that have spent years in Iraq and Afghanistan.

Quote:

Originally posted by unknown1002001

...

And we cut off Japan's access to resources so this meant an attack was eminent. Looking back at history most wars are started over two parties fighting for the same natural resources.

Japan invaded China, Philippines etc etc

Oh and here is a little news story for you Sugarpie

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-22/russian-forces-on-border-stir-concern-as-crimea-annexed.html

“It is important that we in the free world not accept the occupation of Crimea, that we continue to resist, and that we do not return to business as usual with the Putin regime until such time as the occupation of Crimea ends,” Canadian Prime Minister Stephen Harper said in Kiev today at a news conference with his Ukrainian counterpart, Arseniy Yatsenyuk. “The consequences of these actions will be felt far beyond the borders of Ukraine.”

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

...

“It is important that we in the free world not accept the occupation of Crimea, that we continue to resist

Why?

damn what happen to taking care of our own which is all I have to say because i refuse to get in an argument with anyone who bad mouths the United States especially if he or she is not an American no offence intended but its called patriotism some of you just wouldn't understand

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryseagrahm

damn what happen to taking care of our own which is all I have to say because i refuse to get in an argument with anyone who bad mouths the United States especially if he or she is not an American no offence intended but its called patriotism some of you just wouldn't understand

I assume that you're talking about me, so I'll just say that I don't believe that I'm badmouthing the US. I like the US, I like Americans, I have lots of American relatives. But to say that your government is flawless and has done no wrong in the world is entirely false, and has nothing to to do with patriotism.

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryseagrahm

damn what happen to taking care of our own which is all I have to say because i refuse to get in an argument with anyone who bad mouths the United States especially if he or she is not an American no offence intended but its called patriotism some of you just wouldn't understand

I bad mouth the US all the time. Just because you happen to have been born and raised in a place doesn't mean you can't criticize it. In fact, you have a duty as a member of that citizenry to try to point out all the awful, terrible, stupid things your country is doing because they're ostensibly being done in your name.

As one of America's foremost scholars has pointed out:

Quote:

My own concern is primarily the terror and violence carried out by my own state, for two reasons. For one thing, because it happens to be the larger component of international violence. But also for a much more important reason than that; namely, I can do something about it. So even if the U.S. was responsible for 2 percent of the violence in the world instead of the majority of it, it would be that 2 percent I would be primarily responsible for. And that is a simple ethical judgment. That is, the ethical value of one's actions depends on their anticipated and predictable consequences. It is very easy to denounce the atrocities of someone else. That has about as much ethical value as denouncing atrocities that took place in the 18th century.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

...

I'll take that as a "no."

I mean, I hope it's not lost on you that the two things you compared Russia's Crimea excursion to happened so long ago as to not be relevant on today's international stage, and furthermore, both involved sovereign nations, you know, ATTACKING THE UNITED STATES. Last I checked Ukraine wasn't in the United States.

Putin has the same amount of control over Russia that old leaders enjoyed. I have read reports that he has amassed a $70 Billion fortune while ruling Russia. There is little or no checks and balances in Russia like in the US or even China. So what is to stop Putin from going mad with power?. He wants sacrifice from Billionaires in Russia but keeps loading up with Cash. He mainly appeals to the rural type Russians who want Russia to be like the Soviet Union of the old days. That is why he is projecting a macho image ie riding shirtless on horse back etc. He has said losing the USSR was a travesty. If he easily obtains the Ukraine then he will be tempted to go after other nearby countries. This sets a bad precedent world wide as well. Yes the US is the ONLY country that has the power to be the worlds policeman. We have military bases all over the world. Russia has only one military base in Syria. Obama is limited in Power by Congress. Putin has no limits to his power. That is just plain dangerous. Putin can stay in power 24 years or longer. He has already been in Power for 14(some of that in the background) The US is the only country that can project its military might around the world so that we can protect smaller countries from Dictators

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

...

I bad mouth the US all the time. Just because you happen to have been born and raised in a place doesn't mean you can't criticize it. In fact, you have a duty as a member of that citizenry to try to point out all the awful, terrible, stupid things your country is doing because they're ostensibly being done in your name.

As one of America's foremost scholars has pointed out:
...

Wow! Something we agree on. I am quick to criticize my country when I see something bad happening. That goes for other countries too. One thing I don't like is how money is influencing who gets into office. Whoever can raise the most money for advertising usually wins. Candidates are constantly fund raising. They did pass limits on fundraising but this doesn't stop 3rd party spending. I think money buys influence. Paid lobbyist influence Politicians. Special interest. Elections are not corrupt but they are highly influenced by who can raise the most money. That didn't help Billionaire Ross Perot get elected to President so there are many exceptions to that rule

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Japan invaded China, Philippines etc etc

Yes, because they copied our western model of conquest and imperialism after Commodore Perry paid them a visit and threatened them with the business end of a cannon. The Japanese quickly realized they had better modernize or risk become another conquered land.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

...

Why?

You will have to ask your Canadian King. He seems to think that Russia annexing Crimea hurts the world. I am sure some Mexicans want us to annex another part of Mexico. Maybe we should send troops down there and surround Tijuana and THEN let them vote on it

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

...

You will have to ask your Canadian King.

I'm asking you. Why? Why is it important that we in the free world not accept the occupation of Crimea, that we continue to resist.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Maybe we should send troops down there and surround Tijuana and THEN let them vote on it

Sure, you could do that, except it wouldn't be anything like what happened in Crimea. As I've mentioned at least 2 other times in this thread, the Russian troops were already in Crimea, and had been for over a decade AT THE REQUEST of the Crimea government. Also...I don't believe Tijuana has never been been part of the united States, nor have they been traded around from country to country like some baseball card.

Nightcruiser, she did ask you a fair question.

"Why is it important that we in the free world not accept the occupation of Crimea?"

I think that's a very fair question to ask.

I agree with omuh said in post 88:

Quote:

The problem is that for a vote to be valid, it has to be cast by a legitimate entity, in this case the Ukrainian government. Russia and the people in Crimea who organized the vote had no right to do so and that's why no one is considering the referendum as valid and that's also probably why we can consider the result as biased : would you vote if some random people organized a fake vote about something you're not into ? Nope.

I get the whole democracy point but without proper settings and considering the propaganda power of Russia and the military forces deployed in Crimea, I'm pretty sure it's just a parody of it that we saw with that vote.

Here is what Russia is doing now. Attacking Ukraine Military bases. We had a pact with Ukraine to defend them:

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26698754

"Russian troops have stormed a Ukrainian airbase in Crimea throwing stun grenades and firing automatic weapons in the air.

Reports say at least one person was injured during the assault on Belbek base, near Sevastopol. The base is now said to be under Russian control.

Earlier, several hundred unarmed protesters seized a Ukrainian naval base at Novofedorivka, western Crimea.

Russia formally annexed the Ukrainian region on Friday.
Continue reading the main story
“Start Quote

It was quick, well-organised and over before the Ukrainians could fight back; much like Russia's entire takeover of Crimea”

image of Mark Lowen Mark Lowen BBC News, Novofedorivka base

Crimea base falls

Russian forces appear to be stepping up their efforts to push all Ukrainian forces out of the region.

In another development, Ukraine's warship Slavutych has been seized.

The command vessel was seized by Crimean "self-defence" units and Russian troops after a two-hour assault in Sevastopol, a Ukrainian defence spokesman said.

The BBC's Ian Pannell in Belbek says the Ukrainian troops on the peninsula feel beleaguered and abandoned by their commanders..........."

So are you ever gonna answer my question, or just bring up stuff that we've already read?

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

Nightcruiser, she did ask you a fair question.

"Why is it important that we in the free world not accept the occupation of Crimea?"

I think that's a very fair question to ask.

I haven't read everything fully, so sorry if I'm not answering right on this. But I'd say that it's important because Russia and part of Crimea aren't respecting international and their national laws (invading part of a country and pushing a referendum for Russia ; organizing this referendum and considering it as valid for part of Crimea despite the fact that it's not valid).
I totally get the point that if the people want something they should get it and I'd probably agree with SP if we where discussing how democracy should be. But for now, there are rules and they haven't been respected. Also, as it's been pointed out before, the circumstances and the result of the vote aren't really in favor of real democracy here.

So that's why I'd be opposed to what happened : because if we start to allow things like that, then every country can do whatever he wants with others.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-23/ukraine-s-top-diplomat-says-risk-of-war-with-russia-grows.html



Ukraine’s Top Diplomat Says Risk of War With Russia Grows
By David Lerman Mar 23, 2014 4:13 PM ET
157 Comments Email Print


Photographer: Oleg Klimov/Epsilon via Getty Images

Ukrainian soldiers sing the Ukrainian national anthem after Russian special forces... Read More

Ukraine’s foreign minister said the chances of war with Russia are increasing as thousands of Russian troops gather on his country’s border.

“We are ready to respond,” Foreign Minister Andrii Deshchytsia said in an interview broadcast today on ABC-TV’s “This Week” program.

“The Ukraine government is trying to use all the peaceful, diplomatic means and diplomatic means to stop Russians, but the people are also ready to defend their homeland,” he said.

With President Barack Obama scheduled to travel to Europe tomorrow to consult with allies, U.S. intelligence and military officials said Russian troops are massed along virtually the entire Ukrainian border. The number of troops is about double what it was when Moscow’s defense ministry announced that armed forces would hold exercises near Ukraine, the officials said....................

I told you this would escalate:
http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-03-23/nato-must-be-ready-to-counter-russian-threat-top-commander-says.html

NATO Must Be Ready to Counter Russian Threat, Top Commander Says
By Ian Wishart Mar 23, 2014 9:06 AM ET

U.S. Air Force General Philip Breedlove said the buildup of Russian troops on the country’s border with Ukraine means NATO forces need to reposition themselves and increase their readiness.

Russian troops massing at the border are “very, very sizable and very, very credible,” Breedlove, the top NATO commander, said today at the German Marshall Fund conference in Brussels. “We need to think about our allies, the positioning of our forces in the alliance and our readiness of our forces in the alliance, such that we can be there to defend against them if required, especially in the Baltics and other places.”

The focus on the crisis in Ukraine is shifting to whether Russia will seek to claim other parts of the country now its annexation of Crimea is complete. U.S. and European leaders are warning that Russia faces further punishment if it doesn’t defuse the crisis.

U.S. intelligence and military officials say there are now Russian troops along virtually all of the country’s border with Ukraine. Some units have moved within 31 miles (50 kilometers) of the border, said the officials, who requested anonymity to discuss classified intelligence reports.

“With thousands of Russian troops still massed on Ukraine’s borders, there’s a grave risk of the Ukraine crisis deepening,” U.K. Foreign Secretary William Hague wrote in the Sunday Telegraph today. “This is the most serious risk to European security we have seen so far in the 21st century.”

Quote:

Originally posted by omuh

...
I haven't read everything fully, so sorry if I'm not answering right on this. But I'd say that it's important because Russia and part of Crimea aren't respecting international and their national laws (invading part of a country and pushing a referendum for Russia ; organizing this referendum and considering it as valid for part of Crimea despite the fact that it's not valid).

Americans didn't respect national law when they revolted against the English and declared their independence, so why is this different. When you are part of a country, or under control of a country, and you no longer want to be part of that country, separating from it will most likely require breaking the law...especially when that country doesn't want you to leave. The people of Crimea did not like the direction Ukraine was heading with becoming more tied to the West, they felt they had no option but to separate ties. Time and time again people have called this an invasion by Russia, and time and time again I've tried to say that it isn't/wasn't an invasion. How can you call it an invasion if the troops were already there, (at the request of the Crimea people) and are protecting the interests of the people there? I will agree that there are people in Crimea that don't want to join Russia, and it sucks for them, I get that...but you CAN NOT deny that the majority of the people in Crimea want this. Calling it an invasion by Russia is not only false, but its insulting to the people of Crimea.

Quote:

Originally posted by Omuh

the circumstances and the result of the vote aren't really in favor of real democracy here.

Oh, so because they aren't a democracy, then we shouldn't allow it? So because you don't like their type of government, then we should stop them from what they want? This is an unbelievably dangerous way to think in my opinion. Lets force our beliefs on a nation(s) because we don't like what they believe in. I'm not saying that I want to live in Russia, nor am I saying that I think their form of government is good. What I'm saying is they believe its good, or at least better than what they have now.

Quote:

Originally posted by Omuh

if we start to allow things like that, then every country can do whatever he wants with others.

If its the will of the people living in those countries, then who are we to say that they can't do what they want? It happened all the time in the 1800's. Lots of Caribbean islands were under Spanish, French, and English control and over the years they've either become independent nations, were sold off to other countries, or have joined other nations. As long as the people of both nations want it, who are we to say they can't join?


Still waiting for NightCrusier to answer my question.