What should the West do about Ukraine?

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Originally posted by jerryseagrahm

damn what happen to taking care of our own which is all I have to say because i refuse to get in an argument with anyone who bad mouths the United States especially if he or she is not an American no offence intended but its called patriotism some of you just wouldn't understand

There's a difference between being a Patriot, and being parrot.
A Patriot stands for their country, and champions the ideals and beliefs that make a country great. They seek to keep their country great, and to ensure that it does not fail. A Patriot rights wrongs, because it's in the best interest of the country they love. A Patriot sheds blood, physical and/or metaphorical, in service of their country.

And an American Patriot would believe in the free expression of ideas for all, and gratefully accept constructive criticism because it would allow them to focus on wrongs, and to redirect America from where it has strayed.

A parrot repeats catchy phrases, given to them by their masters.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Americans didn't respect national law when they revolted against the English and declared their independence, so why is this different.

A) Because modern democracies recognize the right of people to revolt against their own government. So much so that it's inherent in the Declaration of Independence, tacit in the Constitution, and outright encouraged in the Federalist Papers (among other founding documents for our nation - and many other democracies).

B) Two wrongs don't make a right.

We've done some hokey stuff in our history - as have most other nations. That doesn't mean it should have been done, or that it should be done moving forward.

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Originally posted by Tarquin

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A) Because modern democracies recognize the right of people to revolt against their own government. So much so that it's inherent in the Declaration of Independence, tacit in the Constitution, and outright encouraged in the Federalist Papers (among other founding documents for our nation - and many other democracies).

B) Two wrongs don't make a right.

We've done some hokey stuff in our history - as have most other nations. That doesn't mean it should have been done, or that it should be done moving forward.

I'll say the same thing to you as I've been saying to NightCruiser....American beliefs, laws, and ideals...be it in your constitution or not, has NOTHING to do with the situation in Crimea. If you're so upset with people revolting against their governments, why aren't we talking about Venezuela, The Sudan, Syria, Mali, and a handful of other countries? I'll tell you why, because you weren't raised to think that any of those countries were evil.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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I'll say the same thing to you as I've been saying to NightCruiser....American beliefs, laws, and ideals...be it in your constitution or not, has NOTHING to do with the situation in Crimea.

I don't think democracy is necessarily an "American ideal."

Lots of nations can lay claim to that prize, and it's generally the will of most of the world. I don't think there's anyone, in any portion of the world, that likes having their life choices dictated to them.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

If you're so upset with people revolting against their governments, why aren't we talking about Venezuela,

Because:

A) I am not upset.
B) This thread is not about Venezuela.

The same can be said for each of the other nations you listed.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

]I'll tell you why, because you weren't raised to think that any of those countries were evil.

See above. You're making an awful lot of errant conclusions here, SP. About me, about the topic, about other people's thoughts, and even about their statements. You're being very presumptuous, and errantly so - and not for the first time.


PS: Most westerners were indeed raised with the belief that Venezuela was a dictatorship (and that's mostly true). Most westerners were raised with the belief that Syria is a tyranny largely based on theocratic zealotry, and again that's mostly true. Sudan and Mali are equally fucked up places, if not worse.

But again, this thread isn't about those places. It's about Ukraine.

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Originally posted by Tarquin

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I don't think democracy is necessarily an "American ideal."

Lots of nations can lay claim to that prize, and it's generally the will of most of the world. I don't think there's anyone, in any portion of the world, that likes having their life choices dictated to them.

Its not just an American ideal, but its also not everyones ideal. Why can't you accept that some nations and citizens may want to live in a system like Russia's? Which isn't communism by the way, but I suppose could be considered a dictatorship. Perhaps the people of Crimea are tired of living in a democracy, tired of having to fight in a free economy...maybe they just want a government to tell them what to do and look after them?

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Originally posted by Tarquin

The same can be said for each of the other nations you listed.

Ok...so you're not upset, thats fine, but why isn't the world making an issue out of whats happening in those nations? It seems awful suspicious to me that the only one that anyone is talking about is big bad ole Russia.

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Originally posted by Tarquin

See above. You're making an awful lot of errant conclusions here, SP. About me, about the topic, about other people's thoughts, and even about their statements. You're being very presumptuous, and errantly so - and not for the first time.

So am I wrong? Am I wrong to say that a major reason NightCruiser doesn't like whats going on is because its Russia, and Russia is evil? I don't think I am. Read his comment. As for you, maybe I am wrong, but its a logical assumption to think you feel the same as him...maybe not to the same extent though. You're both American, you both went through the same (more or less) education system I presume, and you both lived through the cold war. However, If I'm wrong about you I apologize.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

PS: Most westerners were indeed raised with the belief that Venezuela was a dictatorship (and that's mostly true).

I lived in Venezuela for 3 months after I finished high school. I was there during some of the unrest in the early 2000's that almost saw Chavez ousted as president. People called him a dictator, but he was loved. During the coup attempt in 2002, it was basically public support that got him back into office. It breaks my heart to see whats going on there now.

What do to?
Do nothing. Why all the others have to deside for the fate of one country and it's people.
Let them do what they like and deserve.

For one thing it was not Crimea's land to give away. The land belonged to Ukraine. Ukraine was not compensated for the land. Not only that, Ukrainian military bases have been attacked by Russian forces. Unprovoked attacks. Ya Russians are real nice people--NOT!
Number 2 is there are countries who escaped from what used to be the Soviet Union living in fear that Putin wants to put that Union back together. Putin has said the breakup was a huge mistake. So there goes another buffer between the break away countries and Russia. Russian troops are closer to these countries. Russian troops are getting closer to the Eastern half of Ukraine. Why? They already took a natural gas location that was outside of Crimea.
NATO cannot wait and see. They have to plan ahead and be ready for any contingency. If and when Putin makes another move NATO has to be in place to counter it. NATO can't just trust Putin won't go after other countries. Then there is the Pact the west made with Ukraine for giving up Nukes in exchange for protection. Would Russia had made this move if Ukraine was still loaded with Nukes? The west left Ukraine defenseless but with a promise....
So there you have it. The entire region has become unstable because Russia wanted the land. If Russia just wanted the people then he could have invited them all to leave Crimea.
So it looks like NATO will have to beef up its presence in NATO countries. How will Russia respond? Russia has already shifted some of its troops to counter NATO's moves. Obama has been good about getting a consensus from Allies. But a good many in Congress want to go for blood.
Hence the reason it was just a bad idea for Russia to annex Crimea. Just one big mess that can explode into a much bigger mess
Another thing is Russia's economy is not doing too good. What would be a good distraction to that fact? What would make Putin look good to the Russian people and feel better about themselves? Putin to the rescue of Russians in Crimea, that is what. Flexing Russian military has brought out patriotism. Russians want to feel powerful again. They will feel good for a little while until their economy gets even worse from sanctions. So Putin better get busy with even more invasions..My opinion

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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but you CAN NOT deny that the majority of the people in Crimea want this. Calling it an invasion by Russia is not only false, but its insulting to the people of Crimea.

I don't know as I have yet to see a valid vote about that.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

Oh, so because they aren't a democracy, then we shouldn't allow it? So because you don't like their type of government, then we should stop them from what they want? This is an unbelievably dangerous way to think in my opinion. Lets force our beliefs on a nation(s) because we don't like what they believe in. I'm not saying that I want to live in Russia, nor am I saying that I think their form of government is good. What I'm saying is they believe its good, or at least better than what they have now.

That's not what I meant. I don't know much about the Ukrainian government and was certainly not criticizing how Crimea works either and even less how they should. What I was talking about was the referendum and how it was conducted.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

If its the will of the people living in those countries, then who are we to say that they can't do what they want? It happened all the time in the 1800's. Lots of Caribbean islands were under Spanish, French, and English control and over the years they've either become independent nations, were sold off to other countries, or have joined other nations. As long as the people of both nations want it, who are we to say they can't join?

And I perfectly agree with you about that as long as we're sure that it's the choice of the people there (as you seem to be sure) and not another country and a few people wanting to keep their assets, even by force.
You might be right, maybe that's what the people in Crimea really wants and I have no certitude about any conclusion but I'm really sceptical about that especially now that Russia is doing pressure on the boarders and taking Ukrainian military bases by force.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Its not just an American ideal, but its also not everyones ideal.

I grant that there are a few people somewhere that don't care to make their own life decisions, don't care about equal opportunity, and so on. But not many.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

Why can't you accept that some nations and citizens may want to live in a system like Russia's?

Sugarpie, come on now. Even the Russians don't like their own government. That's been made clear many times through protests, revolutions, commentary and secession.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

Which isn't communism by the way, but I suppose could be considered a dictatorship.

True. Russia is a dictatorship. You're right. It's not communist. Do you really think the average guy on the street there likes that system for himself and his family?

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

Perhaps the people of Crimea are tired of living in a democracy, tired of having to fight in a free economy...maybe they just want a government to tell them what to do and look after them?

... Right...

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

but why isn't the world making an issue out of whats happening in those nations? It seems awful suspicious to me that the only one that anyone is talking about is big bad ole Russia.

That's what this thread is about: Ukraine. Other people are indeed talking about all sorts of other circumstances in the world. Darfur, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and others. They can't all fit in this thread.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

So am I wrong? Am I wrong to say that a major reason NightCruiser doesn't like whats going on is because its Russia, and Russia is evil?

I can't speak for Nightcruiser. I don't know if you're wrong about him or not. But you said it to me.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

As for you, maybe I am wrong, but its a logical assumption to think you feel the same as him...maybe not to the same extent though.

No, it's really not logical. I've made it quite clear in a number of threads that I don't operate that way. That's not logical. It's a jump to a conclusion without basis. This is especially true since I have endorsed and bolstered your points on several occassions; something I don't think NightCruiser has done.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

You're both American, you both went through the same (more or less) education system I presume, and you both lived through the cold war. However, If I'm wrong about you I apologize.

I appreciate that, Sugarpie.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

I lived in Venezuela for 3 months after I finished high school. I was there during some of the unrest in the early 2000's that almost saw Chavez ousted as president. People called him a dictator, but he was loved. During the coup attempt in 2002, it was basically public support that got him back into office. It breaks my heart to see whats going on there now.

And it is indeed tragic. Just as are 20 other circumstances in the world. But this thread isn't about those other 20 places. That doesn't mean no one cares about those other circumstances. We're not talking about those things in this thread, but that hardly means they're not important or equally tragic.

Still, even if no one actually cared about those places though, it still wouldn't make what's happening in Crimea okay.

But people do care. They care about many different things. They can't all be discussed in this thread. I'm not certain why you think not talking about Darfur in a thread about Crimea means no one cares about Darfur. People care. It's just not the topic of this discussion.

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

For one thing it was not Crimea's land to give away. The land belonged to Ukraine. Ukraine was not compensated for the land.

Wrong. You are entirely wrong on this. The land belonged to the USSR and as has been stated more than once in this thread, the land (and the people living on it) were "given" to the Ukraine as a type of anniversary gift for the Ukraine's 300th anniversary of joining the Russian federation. The only way the land "belonged" to the Ukraine is because it was given to them without consent of the people living there.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Not only that, Ukrainian military bases have been attacked by Russian forces. Unprovoked attacks. Ya Russians are real nice people--NOT!
Number 2 is there are countries who escaped from what used to be the Soviet Union living in fear that Putin wants to put that Union back together. Putin has said the breakup was a huge mistake. So there goes another buffer between the break away countries and Russia. Russian troops are closer to these countries. Russian troops are getting closer to the Eastern half of Ukraine. Why? They already took a natural gas location that was outside of Crimea.
NATO cannot wait and see. They have to plan ahead and be ready for any contingency. If and when Putin makes another move NATO has to be in place to counter it. NATO can't just trust Putin won't go after other countries. Then there is the Pact the west made with Ukraine for giving up Nukes in exchange for protection. Would Russia had made this move if Ukraine was still loaded with Nukes? The west left Ukraine defenseless but with a promise....
So there you have it. The entire region has become unstable because Russia wanted the land. If Russia just wanted the people then he could have invited them all to leave Crimea.
So it looks like NATO will have to beef up its presence in NATO countries. How will Russia respond? Russia has already shifted some of its troops to counter NATO's moves. Obama has been good about getting a consensus from Allies. But a good many in Congress want to go for blood.
Hence the reason it was just a bad idea for Russia to annex Crimea. Just one big mess that can explode into a much bigger mess
Another thing is Russia's economy is not doing too good. What would be a good distraction to that fact? What would make Putin look good to the Russian people and feel better about themselves? Putin to the rescue of Russians in Crimea, that is what. Flexing Russian military has brought out patriotism. Russians want to feel powerful again. They will feel good for a little while until their economy gets even worse from sanctions. So Putin better get busy with even more invasions..My opinion

I was going to reply to the rest of this, but I've decided there is no point in any longer talking to someone who a) obviously doesn't ready my replies anyway. b) is delusional about international politics, and c) made up your mind about Russia before even starting this thread.

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Originally posted by omuh

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I don't know as I have yet to see a valid vote about that.

True, but there is lots of circumstantial evidence. Video of people celebrating, interviews with average citizens, not to mention their past history and attempts at self government and attempts at rejoining Russia in the past.

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Originally posted by Omuh

That's not what I meant. I don't know much about the Ukrainian government and was certainly not criticizing how Crimea works either and even less how they should. What I was talking about was the referendum and how it was conducted.

Agreed, and I've said it here before...the vote was a sham. It still doesn't mean that it doesn't reflect the will of the people. I tend to think that actions speak louder than words, and right now Crimea's actions to me say they want to rejoin Russia.

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Originally posted by Omuh

And I perfectly agree with you about that as long as we're sure that it's the choice of the people there (as you seem to be sure) and not another country and a few people wanting to keep their assets, even by force.
You might be right, maybe that's what the people in Crimea really wants and I have no certitude about any conclusion but I'm really sceptical about that especially now that Russia is doing pressure on the boarders and taking Ukrainian military bases by force.

I agree that the build up of forces along the border is troublesome, but at this point it doesn't mean that Russia is poised to try and take over the entire Ukraine, it could just mean that they are preparing to defend what they believe is theirs. I 100% believe that its the will of the majority in Crimea to rejoin Russia. Why else would they have invited Russian troops to be there the last decade, why else would they elect pro reunification leaders, why else would they denounce the direction the Ukraine has taken the last several years?

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Originally posted by Tarquin

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I grant that there are a few people somewhere that don't care to make their own life decisions, don't care about equal opportunity, and so on. But not many.
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Sugarpie, come on now. Even the Russians don't like their own government. That's been made clear many times through protests, revolutions, commentary and secession.
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True. Russia is a dictatorship. You're right. It's not communist. Do you really think the average guy on the street there likes that system for himself and his family?

Its entirely possible to think that the people of Crimea have struggled under democracy and capitalism. They're poor, and they remember the times that when they were part of the USSR, that while they may have been poor, the State looked after them. People have been known to sell their freedom, its does happen. While I agree that it is sad, if you believe that your life would be better in doing so, I'd probably do it too.

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Originally posted by Tarquin

That's what this thread is about: Ukraine. Other people are indeed talking about all sorts of other circumstances in the world. Darfur, Syria, Lebanon, Palestine, and others. They can't all fit in this thread.

When was the last time you've known any WBW thread to say 100% on topic? People could discuss the other nations, but they choose not to, it could be because they're uninformed, it could be because they don't care, it could be because they don't see it as a problem. My point is, because this conflict involves Russia, it evokes certain emotions and reactions in people, simply because its Russia.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

No, it's really not logical. I've made it quite clear in a number of threads that I don't operate that way. That's not logical. It's a jump to a conclusion without basis. This is especially true since I have endorsed and bolstered your points on several occassions; something I don't think NightCruiser has done.

It was a logical assumption. I had evidence and some speculation and came up with an assumption based on that. Just as you did when you said that even if the vote was fair and the people had voted for restoring the prior constitution, that they would inevitably end up rejoining Russia. Both our assumptions are just that...assumptions and may or may not be true. Thats why I added the apology later for if in fact I was wrong.

Anyway...its not a huge leap to assume that Crimea wants to rejoin Russia when you look at the evidence thats been discussed ad nauseam here. And if you can believe that, then you can also believe that the so called "take over" over Ukrainian basses is simply Crimeas way of saying, "they're on our land, they belong to us". If it was a true take over, don't you think that they'd be killing Ukrainian soldiers? I mean...if you forcibly take something, you take away the threat of it being taken back....right? Seems to me that pretty much the first rule in any war. Thats not happening in Crimea, at least not yet. It may, as Ukraine is now basically saying that they're going to send forces in. We'll see. If it does happen, remember that Crimea first took them without any violence.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Wrong. You are entirely wrong on this. The land belonged to the USSR and as has been stated more than once in this thread, the land (and the people living on it) were "given" to the Ukraine as a type of anniversary gift for the Ukraine's 300th anniversary of joining the Russian federation. The only way the land "belonged" to the Ukraine is because it was given to them without consent of the people living there.


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I was going to reply to the rest of this, but I've decided there is no point in any longer talking to someone who a) obviously doesn't ready my replies anyway. b) is delusional about international politics, and c) made up your mind about Russia before even starting this thread.

You say "given". You don't say loaned or rented. I really don't think you are allowed to take gifts back just because you feel like it. i guess you could beat someone up and take it back--like Russia just did. I guess you would go to jail but you want to give Russia a free ride for robbing and assaulting Ukraine

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

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You say "given". You don't say loaned or rented. I really don't think you are allowed to take gifts back just because you feel like it. i guess you could beat someone up and take it back--like Russia just did. I guess you would go to jail but you want to give Russia a free ride for robbing and assaulting Ukraine

I really don't think people and the land they live on should be given in the first place.
And again...you're wrong again on Russia taking it back. Russia didn't take anything. How has Russia "robbed or assaulted" Ukraine? Oh wait...nevermind, you won't answer anyway, because there isn't a news article you can quote.

News articles back up what I am saying. Russia destabilized the region. Really doesn't matter if you and some others think it was ok for Russia to annex Crimea part of Ukraine. Now many NATO country near Crimea think Russia will annex them next. NATO has to move in troops and more firepower just in case. This could lead to Nuclear nation confrontation. Crimea was given to Ukraine. If Ukraine then owned Crimea then it wasn't citizens in Crimea to ask anyone to annex them without Ukraine's approval. Russia had the port and could put 25000 troops in Crimea. They didn't need to annex Putin put his personal interest ahead what was best for Russia

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

News articles back up what I am saying. Russia destabilized the region. Really doesn't matter if you and some others think it was ok for Russia to annex Crimea part of Ukraine. Now many NATO country near Crimea think Russia will annex them next. NATO has to move in troops and more firepower just in case. This could lead to Nuclear nation confrontation. Crimea was given to Ukraine. If Ukraine then owned Crimea then it wasn't citizens in Crimea to ask anyone to annex them without Ukraine's approval. Russia had the port and could put 25000 troops in Crimea. They didn't need to annex Putin put his personal interest ahead what was best for Russia

How do you know those news articles are correct and factual? The CIA throughout history has been destabilizing countries and only recently these operations have been finally declassified after decades. Also have you seen a map lately of where we (the US) have military bases. IMO it appears to be an empire out to control it's territories.

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Originally posted by unknown1002001

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How do you know those news articles are correct and factual? The CIA throughout history has been destabilizing countries and only recently these operations have been finally declassified after decades. Also have you seen a map lately of where we (the US) have military bases. IMO it appears to be an empire out to control it's territories.

Well none of the countries are denying the newspaper accounts what military leaders are saying. They are not denying the quotes of what they say. Just makes sense that they would be upset about Russia taking part of Georgia and Ukraine

We have a lot of bases so we can get to our allies if they need help ie Japan, Germany, Philippines, Israel, Taiwan etc. Japan and Germany don't trust themselves to have a large Military. Japan is starting to move that way though to counter China's moves and military power. We also need to be able to keep shipping lanes open

You're delusional.

Meee delusional?! You're such a bad girl Sugarpie. I like it!