What should the West do about Ukraine?

We still made a pact to defend then if they go rid of their Nuclear weapons. They got rid of the Nukes. This agreement was made back in 1991. I don't know why we would that knowing full well we wouldn't go to war with Russia over the Ukraine. They would have had a better chance of us defending them militarily if they had become a member of NATO. Then we could have stationed warplanes and other military hardware there. Maybe would have been a deterrent to Russia.
Yea Russia has it right. Their backed leader was ousted by an armed coup. A good many easterners want to be Russians. But this is a Ukrainian problem. Russians in Ukraine could move to Russia if that is what they want to do. A Russian invasion was not necessary. Little Ukraine was not a threat to Russia. Putin is just trying to force the Soviet Union back together. So it isn't just about Ukraine. He started with Georgia and could go after other countries.
What we need to do is get out of Afghanistan. Get our economy stronger. Get our debt down. So we can be prepared to confront Russia and/or China militarily in the future. People are more worried about our debt and economy than starting wars. We have one war of the longest wars in history still going on. That war is failing just like the Iraqi war failed. Both were political failures instead of Military failures

Am I the only one who really doesn't care what happens? I mean, I know its a big story, and I'm interested in it from a media point of view, but as to what the actual end result is...does it really matter? So Russia takes over the Ukraine...in the grand scheme of things is your life any different, is mine...is the average person in the Ukraine's? It seems to me if Russia does take them over, pretty much all that happens is they trade one shitty leader for a new shitty leader.

Exactly

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

Am I the only one who really doesn't care what happens? I mean, I know its a big story, and I'm interested in it from a media point of view, but as to what the actual end result is...does it really matter? So Russia takes over the Ukraine...in the grand scheme of things is your life any different, is mine...is the average person in the Ukraine's? It seems to me if Russia does take them over, pretty much all that happens is they trade one shitty leader for a new shitty leader.

The fallout will effect the west as sanctions against Russia take effect. Russia cuts off the natural gas supply to Europe. The there is the many western companies in russia.. etc . The cold war will start all over. Yea the actual take over won't effect us but western governments won't stand by and let Russia take over another country . The fallout will be felt in the world economy. My first thought was who cares about Ukraine too. But as it turned out the west made a pact to defend Ukraine. So it is not likely Russia will back down or that the West will back down

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

Am I the only one who really doesn't care what happens? I mean, I know its a big story, and I'm interested in it from a media point of view, but as to what the actual end result is...does it really matter? So Russia takes over the Ukraine...in the grand scheme of things is your life any different, is mine...is the average person in the Ukraine's? It seems to me if Russia does take them over, pretty much all that happens is they trade one shitty leader for a new shitty leader.

What if the US took over Canada ?
My life wouldn't change either but I'm pretty sure yours would

Also, Russia isn't taking over Ukraine. They are fighting over Crimea which is an "autonomous" region but still depends on Ukraine. What Russia did wrong is to send troops over here while it's not their country and organize a referendum to make it part of Russia instead while they don't have the power to do so (Crimea needs the approval of Ukraine for that which they didn't have).

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

Am I the only one who really doesn't care what happens? I mean, I know its a big story, and I'm interested in it from a media point of view, but as to what the actual end result is...does it really matter? So Russia takes over the Ukraine...in the grand scheme of things is your life any different, is mine...is the average person in the Ukraine's? It seems to me if Russia does take them over, pretty much all that happens is they trade one shitty leader for a new shitty leader.

I don't care what happens either. As the founding fathers of the USA said stay out of foreign affairs and I agree with this philosophy.

I'm guessing that Putin's been just waiting for this kind of chaos to restore the Black Sea fleet, and take back the Crimea where all their best ports used to be in that region. Makes it a lot easier, when you also own all the surrounding territory. Russia "owned" it since they took it from the Ottoman empire in the 1800's. Looks like they want it back. It's been an on-again off-again autonomous region for the past 1000 years, so they might believe they have some say in their future in all this chaos, but I'm guessing that it just comes down to Putin wanting the ports back, and having the clout to be able to do it. People in that region have long memories for their history (even when they are not accurate), and there is a lot of nostalgia for the "protection" they felt under Stalinist rule. Given the current chaos, I'm guessing that is what's being discussed and promoted in the public venues, and Putin is seen as a new Stalinist by them. Ultimately, Crimea isn't a state in the sense that the USA has states. They've been an autonomous region for a long time, and have shifted allegiances when needed. Russia stands to gain a lot financially, even with sanctions in place, with their control of the warm water ports there. Europe gets over a third of their fuel from Russia, so I don't see how sanctions can have much effect with them. Too much at stake, now that the economies are showing signs of improvement.

Who knows, maybe the USA government is guaranteeing the fuel needs of Europe, not that prices are favorable to rebuilding the domestic oil and gas production. Governments are all businesses now, and the USA would stand to gain greatly by the huge shift in fuel sales from Russia to them. That would certainly leave the possibilities of sanctions on the table, with some real clout to back it up.

Quote:

Originally posted by vdg1959

Who knows, maybe the USA government is guaranteeing the fuel needs of Europe, not that prices are favorable to rebuilding the domestic oil and gas production. Governments are all businesses now, and the USA would stand to gain greatly by the huge shift in fuel sales from Russia to them. That would certainly leave the possibilities of sanctions on the table, with some real clout to back it up.

How would we guarantee their fuel needs when the USA hit "peak oil" in 1971 and now we are extremely dependent on foreign sources?

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

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The fallout will effect the west as sanctions against Russia take effect. Russia cuts off the natural gas supply to Europe. The there is the many western companies in russia.. etc . The cold war will start all over. Yea the actual take over won't effect us but western governments won't stand by and let Russia take over another country . The fallout will be felt in the world economy. My first thought was who cares about Ukraine too. But as it turned out the west made a pact to defend Ukraine. So it is not likely Russia will back down or that the West will back down

Yeah, I don't see a lot of that happening.

There are many western companies in China and we don't exactly see eye to eye with them either.
Western countries ARE sitting back and doing nothing...right this very moment.
Russia won't cut off natural gas to European countries, because they can make a profit off it, just as European countries won't put a sanction on it, if it means cheaper gas for them.

Yes, my comment about life not being any different for the Ukrainian people is wrong, of course but it not like they're going to wake up one morning and be under communist rule. The prior Ukrainian governments have been on again off again fighting for closer tries to Russia since their separation in 1991.

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Originally posted by omuh

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What if the US took over Canada ?
My life wouldn't change either but I'm pretty sure yours would

Also, Russia isn't taking over Ukraine. They are fighting over Crimea which is an "autonomous" region but still depends on Ukraine. What Russia did wrong is to send troops over here while it's not their country and organize a referendum to make it part of Russia instead while they don't have the power to do so (Crimea needs the approval of Ukraine for that which they didn't have).

Obviously my comments were over simplified. However, a huge percentage of the Ukrainian population, and particularly Crimea has wanted closer ties to Russia almost since their separation in 1991...maybe now they're going to get their wish. As for the USA taking over Canada, yes my life would change, but honestly, not that much. I'd still have the same basic rights and freedoms, I'd still live in a democratic society, I'd still have the same access to entertainment, technology, and healthcare (more or less).
I get your point, but the major difference is that nobody in Canada is calling for closer ties to the US.

Sooo, about 97% of the voting population (86%) of Crimea have apparently voted to rejoin Russia. Perhaps the vote was tampered with, perhaps not. Regardless, pretty much all western countries have said that they aren't going to recognize the vote. I can't say for sure if the vote was rigged or not, but you can't argue the video of pro Russian supporters celebrating the vote result.

So once again, I say, what's the big deal? If they want to rejoin Russia, why not just let them?

It's all much ado about nothing. Just as I originally suspected.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

Sooo, about 97% of the voting population (86%) of Crimea have apparently voted to rejoin Russia. Perhaps the vote was tampered with, perhaps not. Regardless, pretty much all western countries have said that they aren't going to recognize the vote. I can't say for sure if the vote was rigged or not, but you can't argue the video of pro Russian supporters celebrating the vote result.

So once again, I say, what's the big deal? If they want to rejoin Russia, why not just let them?

The people who were against the referendum didn't bother to vote since it was not recognized by the legitimate Ukrainian government, is what I read. They thought it was rigged anyway. What would you do if you were surrounded by Russian troops and military hardware? Russia had already erected border blockades before the vote!. Russia had already took over a natural gas pump station outside Crimea before the vote. Helicopter gunships fly patrols--how intimidating is that? If Russia was only concerned about the pro Russians then why not just let them migrate back to Russia?. They are more interested in the wealth and resources of Crimea, that's why. Russia has a deportation policy going on when it comes to immigrants and foreigners living in Russia. You can be deported for getting traffic tickets or breaking any kind of laws. That is how much they care about pro Russian people living in other poorer states. US workers there have been caught up in this law and been deported.
As one US general pointed out there are many pro Russian enclaves throughout the region. Many in areas protected by NATO. What happens if the pro Russians start wanting to be annexed back into Russia? Russia makes up another reason to invade. The NATO general says we will defend those countries with signed agreements with NATO. There you have WW3. Georgia and Ukraine gone. Putin saying the breakup of the Soviet Union was a travesty that never should have happened. Looks like he is willing to risk it all to put the USSR back together. He really can't care about their economy which has not been all that great to begin with. He has recently took $Billions out of US banks to protect against the possible freeze of assets.

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Originally posted by Davey45

It's all much ado about nothing. Just as I originally suspected.

Or as others would say "Bread and circuses" aka a distraction for the masses.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

...I get your point, but the major difference is that nobody in Canada is calling for closer ties to the US.

Justin Bieber is

I love the smell of napalm in the morning

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

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The people who were against the referendum didn't bother to vote since it was not recognized by the legitimate Ukrainian government, is what I read. They thought it was rigged anyway. What would you do if you were surrounded by Russian troops and military hardware? Russia had already erected border blockades before the vote!. Russia had already took over a natural gas pump station outside Crimea before the vote. Helicopter gunships fly patrols--how intimidating is that? If Russia was only concerned about the pro Russians then why not just let them migrate back to Russia?. They are more interested in the wealth and resources of Crimea, that's why. Russia has a deportation policy going on when it comes to immigrants and foreigners living in Russia. You can be deported for getting traffic tickets or breaking any kind of laws. That is how much they care about pro Russian people living in other poorer states. US workers there have been caught up in this law and been deported.
As one US general pointed out there are many pro Russian enclaves throughout the region. Many in areas protected by NATO. What happens if the pro Russians start wanting to be annexed back into Russia? Russia makes up another reason to invade. The NATO general says we will defend those countries with signed agreements with NATO. There you have WW3. Georgia and Ukraine gone. Putin saying the breakup of the Soviet Union was a travesty that never should have happened. Looks like he is willing to risk it all to put the USSR back together. He really can't care about their economy which has not been all that great to begin with. He has recently took $Billions out of US banks to protect against the possible freeze of assets.

I may be over simplifying things, but you're over complicating things. We have no reason to believe that any of the things you claim will happen, will actually happen.
They claim that nearly 83% of the population voted, and of those voters, they voted 93% in favour of rejoining Russia...so if we can believe those numbers, the overwhelming percentage of the region want this. Yes, the vote could have been tampered with, but there is a lot of video showing a lot of people waving Russian flags and jubilation in the streets. As much as the west may not like the results of the vote, if its what the people want, then I say tough luck for us.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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but there is a lot of video showing a lot of people waving Russian flags and jubilation in the streets. As much as the west may not like the results of the vote, if its what the people want, then I say tough luck for us.

Makes me think about Melenchon in France

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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I may be over simplifying things, but you're over complicating things. We have no reason to believe that any of the things you claim will happen, will actually happen.
They claim that nearly 83% of the population voted, and of those voters, they voted 93% in favour of rejoining Russia...so if we can believe those numbers, the overwhelming percentage of the region want this. Yes, the vote could have been tampered with, but there is a lot of video showing a lot of people waving Russian flags and jubilation in the streets. As much as the west may not like the results of the vote, if its what the people want, then I say tough luck for us.

Those people who want to go to Russia are free to go to Russia. But Russia is NOT free to annex a part of another country. Take their land. Maybe if some Canadian vote to be a part of the USA, we will just annex a part of Canada and really there is not a dayum thing your military could do about it. See how you feel about that happening in your own back yard. Plan for the worst and hope for the best..
Putin hates Gays btw:
http://www.policymic.com/articles/58649/russia-s-anti-gay-law-spelled-out-in-plain-english

"Russia's Anti-Gay Law, Spelled Out in Plain English
August 8, 2013



On June 30 this year, Russian President Vladimir Putin signed into law a bill banning the "propaganda of nontraditional sexual relations to minors," thus opening a new, dark chapter in the history of gay rights in Russia. The law caps a period of ferocious activities by the Russian government aimed at limiting the rights of the country’s lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender, and intersex people.

The violations of fundamental, constitutionally protected rights of Russia’s gay citizens have included multiple bans on gay pride parades in Moscow and other cities, hefty fines to gay rights groups accused of acting as a “foreign agent,” denial of registration to nongovernmental organizations, and regional laws banning the propaganda of homosexuality to minors, which served as a basis for the federal law enacted by Mr. Putin and unanimously passed by the State Duma. Against this backdrop, violent attacks on gays or “suspect gays” are becoming commonplace.

The state-sponsored initiatives relied on ludicrous assumptions. For example, the regional bans on propaganda of homosexuality equated same-sex relations with pedophilia even though the former has been legal since 1993 and the latter is, of course, a serious crime. The court decision denying registration to Sochi Pride House states that “propaganda of nontraditional sexual orientation” is a direct threat to Russian society, while calling attempts to confront homophobia “extremist” because they inherently “incite social and religious hatred.” Essentially, the court ruled that gays incite hatred toward themselves and should be “protected” from doing so. The court went on to argue that such extremist activities present a threat to “Russia’s sovereignty and territorial integrity.” The Russian government uses these flawed arguments when it defends its discriminatory ways to an international audience. Russian diplomats are fond of saying that discrimination does not exist in Russia because the country’s constitution forbids it. Some logic!

Russia’s courts and diplomats — and President Putin — cannot be trusted to explain the status of gay rights in the country, but the European Court of Human Rights can. In April 2011, the Strasbourg court fined Russia for violating articles 11, 13, and 14 of the European Convention by banning 164 pride events and marches between 2006 and 2008. The unanimous decision in Alekseyev v. Russia came into force after the Russian government lost its appeal in Strasbourg, yet although the Kremlin paid the fine, they continued to ban pride rallies. In May 2012, a district court in Moscow issued a ruling banning such events in the city until May 2112. That’s Russia’s approach: pay the fine, admit nothing, and make things worse.................."