What should the West do about Ukraine?

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Well I looked back but couldn't find for sure what you said Sugarpie so thanks for clarifying that. But anyway, anytime the Super powers have a confrontation there is a chance for Nukes. Russia only has a $3 Trillion economy. The US has a $16 Trillion economy and a much large Military budget. We have many top secret weapons. So Russia would lose and be very tempted to resort to Nukes

Instead of resorting to nukes Russia could just resort to dumping their US treasury bonds. Is Obama going to kick Russia out of the SWIFT payment system as he did to Iran?

The disarmament agreement with Ukraine of 1994 compels the US to provide support and assistance in the protection and maintaining of Ukraine's sovereignty and borders...This was in exchange for this former Soviet partner relinquishing their nuclear stockpile...
If the United States has any integrity, character, or credibility left ...it is honor-bound to stand by Ukraine in the threatening crisis taking place as a consequence of Russian aggression. What happens there IS our business, because of our treaty obligations as well as the potential collapse of other former Soviet states if this aggressive land grab by Putin goes unchallenged.
There are ALWAYS consequences...but our present leadership lacks strength, resolve, vision an' credibility...what they will likely decide to do will amount to little or nothing...

As President Kennedy said, "The cost of freedom is always high, but Americans have always paid it."

I mean, that's a nice sound byte and all, but that Kennedy quote is just nonsense.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

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It's possible. Can you explain what it is that makes you feel this decision represents the choice the people would have made had they been given the chance to make it?

The majority of the population of Crimea residents (60%) identify as Russian ethnic, while only 24% identify as Ukrainian ethnic.
Since its split from the USSR in 1991, tensions have been high between Crimea and Ukraine. While technically part of the Ukraine, the Crimea region has constantly pursued self government and even formed their own parliament in 1992. In 1993 they elected their own president. Then in 1995 The Ukraine squashed the Crimea parliament and president because they didn't like continued promotion of integration with Russia. There has been much resentment from the Crimea people towards the Ukraine since 1991, its been building over the last 20+ years. Just watch the video from western media, the people are happy, they're celebrating in the streets. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea#In_Independent_Ukraine

Yes, Russia pushed for this vote, and yes they occupied Crimea pre-vote, and yes there might be a certain level of intimidation, but without the Russians there, Ukrainian forces would just step in a squash this latest uprising just as they done repeatedly over the last 2 decades.
Its unfortunate that the vote was rigged, I mean, it looks like more people voted than are really in the region, so thats shitty. All votes should be fair, and in a perfect world the vote would happen again but in a fair environment. I still believe the majority would vote for integration into Russia though.

Also, the bit about there only being one option on the ballot is false. The referendum questions were:
"Do you support rejoining Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?"
"Do you support restoration of the 1992 Constitution of the Republic of Crimea and Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine?"

There was no option to just leave things as there were, this led many people to believe there was only one option.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Ya see in Sugarpies naive mind, you send in Russian government agents to stir the fear pot and trouble. Then you send in Russian troops to surround the masses. Then you call it a fair vote. Putin is from the Soviet KGB era of population control by propaganda and fear. Already Russian agents are in East Ukraine stirring up trouble as a prelude to the next invasion.

Do you really want to get into name calling again? I'm not Naive thank you, I'm quite educated actually.

You seem to think that this uprising in Crimea just started in the last few weeks, when in reality its been happening since the 50's when the Soviet government transferred control of Crimea from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. And tensions increased again in the 90's with the separation and dismantling of the USSR. You believe that the Russians just invaded a unwilling territory and are forcing them to join them. This simply isn't true. Crimea has been trying to rejoin Russia for decades. They don't see themselves as part of the Ukraine. They've formed their own parliament, elected their own president, only to be squashed by Ukrainian forces and government time and time again.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

The Russian press is not free to say what they want Sugarpie. Recently a Russian lady anchor was speaking out against the Ukrainian invasion and was then fired. She was then rehired because it was too obvious why she was fired. Lots of Russian anchors have been replaced by propagandist.

I think you're talking about former RT anchor Liz Whal, and she wasn't fired...she quit...live on the air. Also, she wasn't re-hired. http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/mar/06/russia-today-anchor-liz-wahl-resigns-on-air-ukraine

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Why are small countries so worried about the attack on Ukraine?

Attack? I haven't seen an attack, I haven't seen any fighting in the streets. Again....you seem to think that Russian troops just rolled across the border a few weeks ago and set up camp. Russian troops have been in Crimea for over a decade.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

They are upset that the west response was very weak.

I agree, the West response has been week. Think about why its been week. Its week because while the occupation and vote are illegal and against various treaties, its what the people want. No government wants to interfere with what the people of Crimea truly want. Thats why there aren't sanctions against the people or territory, they are only against some key Russian officials.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

No Sugarpie is not worried. She is protected from Russia by USA Military next door. Sorry but the Canadian Military would be no match for Russia. The US has a cat and mouse game going on concerning who controls the Arctic etc

Spoken like a true arrogant/ignorant American.

It is payback time. Kosovo was declared an independent country against Russia's and Serbia's will and according to Russia, breaking international law. Crimea is a strategic place in the black sea and Russia wants it back.
It is the will of the crimean people some say. Well, let me tell you the real crimean people, the tartars, was deported by Stalin in the 1940's. More than 40% of them died of hunger and desease. Then Stalin forced russians to move and live in crimea.
Anyway, this agression should not go unanswered as Russia may grow bolder and more dangerous.

If the people truly want to rejoin the Federation who the fuck are we to oppose it.
If its a sham vote, which reports do not indicate, then the EU can do something about it.
The strong always annex regions from others. Every country in a position of strength has done so through out history.
America is no exception so to sit here and claim Russia is some bad giant douche country is pretty fucking ironic.
Also notice in the media everyone the US put sanction on is laughing at us?
Thats right the fucking retard O "wanted to leave room" for more sanctions so he started by hitting everyone that has no foreign assets.
Good going monkey boy, you sure as fuck didn't show them.

Also on the subject of war, with how the pussified bitches of America are we would lose any future serious conflict.
Shit started being real dumb in 07, I remember a specific time when my convey was attacked and we were ordered to not return fire.
All because the pussies wanted us to "win the hearts and minds" and killing the bad people (as we viewed them) wasn't going to do that.
-war is really for another topic line though-

In closing it's kind of Ironic that America would want to get involved in a situation were the people think its time for a new form of government.
Guess if its not us overthrowing a legal government it's not cool.

This thread has made me really happy that international diplomacy isn't carried out by porn message board posters.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lia

Unless people have not noticed Obama has turned our country into the laughing stock of the whole world, He constantly turns his back on our allies and tries to placate our enemies......

Quote:

Originally posted by Caligynephobe

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I think that might be an American opinion of how the world views Obama; you shouldn't listen to Fox.
The UK loves Obama, Now Bush now he was a joke, you could even buy books about how stupid he was. he was a constant source of ridicule on TV programs

Nobody could get there head round how anybody so inarticulate and retarded could be voted into such a position of power and we laughed American's for voting for him.

Obama is revered here; a intelligent world statesman who trying to do good things in America with Obamacare (We've had a similar thing for over 60 years)

Nobody in the UK thinks he's deserted us as an ally, not even a suggestion, that's complete bollocks!!!

World politics gets complicated when there is money involved. Here in the UK, Russians, Chinese and Malaysians have invested heavily. When these countries governments do bad things, is hard to take action when it could have terrible financial implications.

I completely agree with you. Obama is MUCH more respected and revered worldwide than Bush was. We all know that he inherited the poor economic situation, just as he inherited the Iraq and Afghanistan mess. The affordable heath care act is something that America needed. In terms of keeping up with the rest of the world developed nations, the US was 60-100 years behind. History will tell the tale, but in my opinion (and most of the world) Obama will be perceived as a MUCH better president than either Bush.

Quote:

Originally posted by unknown1002001

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Instead of resorting to nukes Russia could just resort to dumping their US treasury bonds. Is Obama going to kick Russia out of the SWIFT payment system as he did to Iran?

Yes follow the money trail as to why the entire west response has been weak. German companies do a lot of business with Russia. Many German companies are located in Russia. 12% of BMW auto business is with Russia. Europe buys a lot of Natural gas from Russia. Ya Russia has invested in the US and so has China. Obama has consulted with the allies and I am sure that put the breaks on severe sanctions--for now. If Russia invades the rest of Ukraine then the sanction gloves may come off. Notice Putin says he will stop a Crimea. I bet slowly but surely he will move into the rest of Ukraine. The rest of the Ukraine would probably be a drain on the Russian economy. Looks really bad when the West word and pacts don't mean much

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

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Yes follow the money trail as to why the entire west response has been weak. German companies do a lot of business with Russia. Many German companies are located in Russia. 12% of BMW auto business is with Russia. Europe buys a lot of Natural gas from Russia. Ya Russia has invested in the US and so has China. Obama has consulted with the allies and I am sure that put the breaks on severe sanctions--for now. If Russia invades the rest of Ukraine then the sanction gloves may come off. Notice Putin says he will stop a Crimea. I bet slowly but surely he will move into the rest of Ukraine. The rest of the Ukraine would probably be a drain on the Russian economy. Looks really bad when the West word and pacts don't mean much

Your statement is entirely true, except that he hasn't invaded any of the Ukraine up to this point.

Also, your statement that 12% of BMW's sales are from Russia is false....its actually 2%.

Quote:

Although Russia accounted for around 2 per cent of BMW's group sales of 1.96 million vehicles in 2013 it was among its fastest growing markets, rising 11.8 per cent to a record 44,871 vehicles.

Source: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/Business/International-Business/BMW-finance-chief-sees-risks-to-its-Russian-business/articleshow/32316660.cms

Bush ? I rather liked #41. I thought he had a balanced view of domestic and foreign policy. But #43....now that fella was just plain nuts. Apropos to the current situation in the Ukraine, I can't help but remember #43 declaring that he had "looked into Putin's eyes and seen his soul' .

Sure. Just as he saw WMDs in Iraq. Maybe a vision test for presidential candidates is in order ?

F.

( political independent)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Also, the bit about there only being one option on the ballot is false. The referendum questions were:
"Do you support rejoining Crimea with Russia as a subject of the Russian Federation?"
"Do you support restoration of the 1992 Constitution of the Republic of Crimea and Crimea's status as a part of Ukraine?"

There was no option to just leave things as there were, this led many people to believe there was only one option.

That's not what Reuters reported, and it would appear you feel that the second option (which you listed above - returning to the 1992 Constitution) would have resulted in a different outcome. That's not the case. Had this item (the second option) passed, it would have been decided by a heavily pro-Russian Assembly already in place, that would have simply delayed the matter.

Quote:

With the pro-Russian assembly already saying it wants to return Crimea to Russia, this second option only offers a slightly longer route to shifting the peninsula back under Russian control, analysts say.

Both of these options were deemed to be the "Yes for reunification" that Russia reported. Any ballots that chose neither option, or both options, were deemed "spoiled" (which means "non-countable".

Quote:

Any mark in one of the boxes is regarded as a "Da" vote. Ballot papers will be regarded as spoiled if a voter fills in both boxes or indeed does not fill in either.

"Even if it (the referendum) were legitimate, the two choices presented to Crimean voters offer them no option for leaving Russian control," wrote Keir Giles of the London-based Chatham House.

So really, the ballot had two options. Both options counted as a "yes."

Not selecting one of the options meant the ballot was "spoiled" and didn't count either for or against - it wasn't considered a cast ballot.

Thats not how I understand it, but then again I'm not from Crimea. I understood it as, option 1) Yes, lets re-join Russia. option 2) No, lets not join Russia, and rather make our ties to Ukraine official, while allowing us certain controls. There was no status quo option because they currently feel alienated from the Ukraine.
I agree that the 2nd option still leaves the door open for reunification with Russia, but it technically does leave Crimea as a Ukrainian state.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

it would appear you feel that the second option (which you listed above - returning to the 1992 Constitution) would have resulted in a different outcome. That's not the case.

You can speculate that, but to say that its simply not the case may not be true. We have no idea what would happen in that situation. You're assuming that the Crimea parliament would still pursue reunification with Russia, when in reality that may or may not happen. Its just as likely that once given semi independent status (self government if you will) within the Ukraine, the Crimea people might be content. Regardless, both scenarios are hypothesis, and can't be claimed will happen if the 2nd option on the ballot was victorious.

The Crimea leaders don't even talk to the east now. The Ukrainian leaders say they were coming to Crimea for negotiations and the Crimea leaders say they would be turn back at the border. So you can safely assume the vote was just for show. The Russian troops were not just going to say oops my bad! and go back to Russia either.
I would call it an invasion when Russian troops set up road blocks to keep the East out and Crimean's in. This was before the vote. I know Russia can keep 25000 troops in Crimea but they were not allowed to take over Ukraine bases and territory--right Sugarpie? You might want to double check my poor short term memory again haha

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

You seem to think that this uprising in Crimea just started in the last few weeks, when in reality its been happening since the 50's when the Soviet government transferred control of Crimea from the Russian Soviet Federative Socialist Republic to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic. And tensions increased again in the 90's with the separation and dismantling of the USSR. You believe that the Russians just invaded a unwilling territory and are forcing them to join them. This simply isn't true. Crimea has been trying to rejoin Russia for decades. They don't see themselves as part of the Ukraine. They've formed their own parliament, elected their own president, only to be squashed by Ukrainian forces and government time and time again.

Just adding my two cents but from what I understand a lot of these borders were drawn up after WWII by the victors (US and Russia) without much consideration for what the general population wanted.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

I think you're talking about former RT anchor Liz Whal, and she wasn't fired...she quit...live on the air. Also, she wasn't re-hired.

Liz resigning live on air to me smelled of a publicity stunt that I believe will ultimately hurt not enhance her career.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

The Crimea leaders don't even talk to the east now. The Ukrainian leaders say they were coming to Crimea for negotiations and the Crimea leaders say they would be turn back at the border. So you can safely assume the vote was just for show. The Russian troops were not just going to say oops my bad! and go back to Russia either.
I would call it an invasion when Russian troops set up road blocks to keep the East out and Crimean's in. This was before the vote. I know Russia can keep 25000 troops in Crimea but they were not allowed to take over Ukraine bases and territory--right Sugarpie? You might want to double check my poor short term memory again haha

I never questioned your short term memory, I have though questioned the so called facts you've presented here.

Regardless, I'm not sure how you call Russian troops in Crimea an "invasion", as they were invited there over a decade ago at the request of the Crimea people. In some aspects, I will agree with you that the vote was just for show, but not in the same way you think it was. You think that the Russians invaded Crimea and forced the people to vote for re-unification. I believe the people of Crimea decided long ago that they wanted to re-join Russia, and enlisted the help of Russia to make this happen.

Quote:

Originally posted by unknown1002001

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Just adding my two cents but from what I understand a lot of these borders were drawn up after WWII by the victors (US and Russia) without much consideration for what the general population wanted.

Absolutely, and the Crimea people have been asking to be part of the USSR, and now Russia since the 50's.

Quote:

Originally posted by unknown

Liz resigning live on air to me smelled of a publicity stunt that I believe will ultimately hurt not enhance her career.

Agreed. News Directors are going to be hesitant to hire anyone who publicly bashed their former employer live on the air.

Surgarpie, you just don't understand the American government. We are coming up on election time. Dems and Reps are pressuring Obama to react more strongly. Obama has added more sanctions today and there is talk of moving troops from Afghanistan to NATO member nations. NATO nations are living in fear. Ukraine says Russia is positioning it's troops to invade them. Putin has place more sanctions on the US. Will Putin lash out militarily if sanctions get too severe? Looks to me like things are escalating. Crimeans may have wanted to suck Putins dick but he didn't have to unzip his pants haha

Someone here correct me, but didn't Nikita Kruschev (sp?) give Crimea to the Ukraine in 1960 ?