What should the West do about Ukraine?

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

Sugarpie we will wait and see if Russia invades the East

Indeed we will...but whether they do or not, doesn't change the fact that they DID NOT invade the Crimea region of the Ukraine.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Indeed we will...but whether they do or not, doesn't change the fact that they DID NOT invade the Crimea region of the Ukraine.

Time will tell, I think that your right.

I am jus worried bout there being such a tenuous situation and there being much of nothing anyone can do to help.

Ukraine to fight pro-Russia forces


I am not saying that we should send .our soldiers, but we do need to monitor what's going on

Ukraine's president says a full-scale operation involving the army will be launched in the east after pro-Russian militants seized government buildings.

Acting President Oleksandr Turchynov said he would not allow a repetition of what happened in Crimea which was annexed by Russia last month.

His live televised address from parliament came after pro-Russian forces targeted half a dozen cities.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-27011605

Quote:

Originally posted by Lia

Ukraine to fight pro-Russia forces


I am not saying that we should send .our soldiers, but we do need to monitor what's going on

Ukraine's president says a full-scale operation involving the army will be launched in the east after pro-Russian militants seized government buildings.

Acting President Oleksandr Turchynov said he would not allow a repetition of what happened in Crimea which was annexed by Russia last month.

His live televised address from parliament came after pro-Russian forces targeted half a dozen cities.

[Link]

I think its VERY important to understand the difference between Pro Russian Militants and Russian Forces. There are no Russian soldiers inside Eastern Ukraine at this time.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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I think its VERY important to understand the difference between Pro Russian Militants and Russian Forces. There are no Russian soldiers inside Eastern Ukraine at this time.

You are exactly right, we have to keep everything in it's proper perspective. TY Sugarpie, I should have worded it jus as you did.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Indeed we will...but whether they do or not, doesn't change the fact that they DID NOT invade the Crimea region of the Ukraine.

You should read this article and get some idea of where Putin is coming from and where he is going. He wants all Russian speakers back in the fold. Slowly but surely he has been working toward that goal:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-04-13/putin-21-year-quest-to-be-guardian-of-russians-began-in-estonia.html

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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I think its VERY important to understand the difference between Pro Russian Militants and Russian Forces. There are no Russian soldiers inside Eastern Ukraine at this time.

It could still be a destabilization strategy from Russia. Those "militants" wear the same uniforms as the soldiers who were in Crimea and Russian equipment.

Also, Russia still has the nerve to warn Ukraine about military action against those guys who are trying to take over public buildings by force, even though it's 100% legitimate that Ukraine fights them. That's just interference with something that isn't their business at all (just like organizing a referendum in another country was).

It would be too naive to think that all those events are happening by themselves and are only led by people will.

Quote:

Originally posted by omuh

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It could still be a destabilization strategy from Russia. Those "militants" wear the same uniforms as the soldiers who were in Crimea and Russian equipment.

Also, Russia still has the nerve to warn Ukraine about military action against those guys who are trying to take over public buildings by force, even though it's 100% legitimate that Ukraine fights them. That's just interference with something that isn't their business at all (just like organizing a referendum in another country was).

It would be too naive to think that all those events are happening by themselves and are only led by people will.

All I'm saying is; these militants are not Russians, they are Ukrainian. It is yet another example of how there is support within the Ukraine to rejoin Russia.

You just don't understand KGB tactics Sugarpie.
I don't think our CIA would be in Ukraine. Pretty much a hopeless situation. We are just not willing to go to War over Ukraine

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

You just don't understand KGB tactics Sugarpie.
I don't think our CIA would be in Ukraine. Pretty much a hopeless situation. We are just not willing to go to War over Ukraine

Please enlighten me then. So you're saying that over the past 23 year, since the breakup of the USSR the KGB has planted operatives within the Ukraine...just waiting to start a revolution? First they'll convince and persuade Crimea that they want to rejoin Russia, and then Eastern Ukraine? After 23 long years, they are finally ready to put their plan into action!

I never said the CIA would be in Ukraine, I never said that the US would be willing to go to war over Ukraine. I never said anything even remotely close to that...like here is Neptune, and here is Earth....see the distance between them? Thats how close I was to suggesting the CIA was in Ukraine.

If you would read...I said that there is a HUGE difference between Russian soldiers and Pro Russian militants. The first are Russians, the 2nd are Ukrainian people who happen to support Russia, and that it shows that there is support within The Ukraine to rejoin Russia. Not sure where you get your ideas that I suggest the CIA is involved...or the KGB for that matter.

I'm going to repeat myself but : It would be too naive to think that all those events are happening by themselves and are only led by people will.

Just because those militants aren't Russian doesn't mean they do that on their own. Where is their Russian equipment coming from ? Why didn't they act when the first pro-european riots happened or even before the "referendum" ?
I'm not saying those militants are all Russian agents but don't be too naive to think they are all people genuinely wanting to rejoin Russia. It's not necessarily a big KGB plan but it clearly smells like a destabilization strategy.

Revolution takes time, it takes patience, it takes planning...look at Venezuela. People are scared to try and overthrow the government if they're not sure there is enough support to make it happen. I'm not saying that this is necessarily a revolution, but yes, it clearly is a destabilization strategy by pro Russian supporters, but not necessarily Russians. I don't know what sort of equipment they have, but its entirely possible that its left over equipment from pre USSR breakup. Or it could be smuggled in via the Russian troops that were legally stationed in Crimea. Or it could have been smuggled in other ways. Is it possible that Russia is aiding these protestors? Sure. Has Russia sent any troops across the Ukrainian border, other than the ones that were legally there prior to the Crimea uprising? Probably not, and if there has been, they are not in uniform and are in limited numbers.

Revolution not only takes time, it takes lots and lots of patience. It takes a lot more planning and patience than is being put into this. Nobody including the Americans, the Europeans, the Ukrainians, or the Russians are acting responsibly.

Sugarpie said

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Please enlighten me then. So you're saying that over the past 23 year, since the breakup of the USSR the KGB has planted operatives within the Ukraine...just waiting to start a revolution? First they'll convince and persuade Crimea that they want to rejoin Russia, and then Eastern Ukraine? After 23 long years, they are finally ready to put their plan into action!

I never said the CIA would be in Ukraine, I never said that the US would be willing to go to war over Ukraine. I never said anything even remotely close to that...like here is Neptune, and here is Earth....see the distance between them? Thats how close I was to suggesting the CIA was in Ukraine.

If you would read...I said that there is a HUGE difference between Russian soldiers and Pro Russian militants. The first are Russians, the 2nd are Ukrainian people who happen to support Russia, and that it shows that there is support within The Ukraine to rejoin Russia. Not sure where you get your ideas that I suggest the CIA is involved...or the KGB for that matter.

That is not what you said but it is what the Russian are saying. They say the CIA is involved in Ukraine. I think Putin and the KGB have been stirring the pot in Ukraine. Putin was in the KGB for many years:Probably feeling the same way he does now about putting the old USSR back together:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vladimir_Putin

"Vladimir Vladimirovich Putin (Russian: Влади́мир Влади́мирович Пу́тин, IPA: [vɫɐˈdʲimʲɪr vɫɐˈdʲimʲɪrəvʲɪt͡ɕ ˈputʲɪn] ( listen), born 7 October 1952) has been the President of Russia since 7 May 2012. He previously served as President from 2000 to 2008, and as Prime Minister of Russia from 1999 to 2000 and again from 2008 to 2012. During that last term as Prime Minister, he was also the Chairman of the United Russia political party.

For 16 years Putin served as an officer in the KGB, rising to the rank of Lieutenant Colonel before he retired to enter politics in his native Saint Petersburg in 1991. He moved to Moscow in 1996 and joined President Boris Yeltsin's administration where he rose quickly, becoming Acting President on 31 December 1999 when Yeltsin resigned unexpectedly. Putin won the subsequent 2000 presidential election and was re-elected in 2004. Because of constitutionally mandated term limits, Putin was ineligible to run for a third consecutive presidential term in 2008. Dmitry Medvedev won the 2008 presidential election and appointed Putin as Prime Minister, beginning a period of so-called "tandemocracy".[1] In September 2011, following a change in the law extending the presidential term from four years to six,[2] Putin announced that he would seek a third, non-consecutive term as President in the 2012 presidential election, an announcement which led to large-scale protests in many Russian cities. He won the election in March 2012 and is serving a six-year term.[3][4]

Many of Putin's actions are regarded by the domestic opposition and foreign observers as undemocratic.[5] The 2011 Democracy Index stated that Russia was in "a long process of regression [that] culminated in a move from a hybrid to an authoritarian regime" in view of Putin's candidacy and flawed parliamentary elections.[6] In 2014 Russia was excluded from the G8 group as a result of international consensus on the illegality of Putin's invasion and annexation of Crimea.[7]..............."

[reply=NightCruiser]Sugarpie said...

That is not what you said but it is what the Russian are saying. They say the CIA is involved in Ukraine. I think Putin and the KGB have been stirring the pot in Ukraine. Putin was in the KGB for many years:Probably feeling the same way he does now about putting the old USSR back together:

It's obvious that the Russians no matter what branch of the government is involved in the destabilization of the Ukraine are the culprits doing this. The Ukraine's ordinary citizens do not have the resources to do what they have been doing on their own without help from a former superpower. The Ukraine is not a member NATO, but many members of NATO are bordering on the Ukraine. If any of them come to the aid of the Ukraine and Russia attacks one of them NATO will be pulled into this mess because of treaty obligations.

The day I believe wikipedia to be the truth is the day I stop being a journalist. Having said that, I have no doubt that Putin was a former KGB agent, and that the KGB have been involved in some shady things. However to suggest that this man has orchestrated the separation of one Ukraine state, and is working on others, without the knowledge and desire of Ukrainian people, and without a single Russian troop crossing the border is preposterous.

Exactly Lia! The last thing Putin should have been thinking of was annexing Crimea . That action would destabilize the region. Eastern Ukraine thinks they are next and on down the line. Putin cared more about that than his people benefiting from the world economy. He wanted a puppet in all of Ukraine

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The day I believe wikipedia to be the truth is the day I stop being a journalist

Most wikipedia articles are sourced so if you have a doubt you can always check them at the bottom of the page

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

The day I believe wikipedia to be the truth is the day I stop being a journalist. Having said that, I have no doubt that Putin was a former KGB agent, and that the KGB have been involved in some shady things. However to suggest that this man has orchestrated the separation of one Ukraine state, and is working on others, without the knowledge and desire of Ukrainian people, and without a single Russian troop crossing the border is preposterous.

So what is some of the Ukrainian people want to be ruled by a dictator? Putin could have invited them all to move back to Russia. Putin could have negotiated that happening with Ukraine and other countries in the region--if it was all about the Russian speakers. The Soviet Union broke apart for a reason. Many surrounding countries now living in fear that Russia will work with pockets of Russian speakers in their country to destabilize them too. Russia had a puppet leading Ukraine. When it lost that puppet is when the trouble began. Now we have Russian troops massed along East Ukraine and a Civil war. NATO beefing up its presence in the region. How is that good for anyone? Easy for you to say living far away in Canada but many of these surrounding countries remember what it was like to be ruled by a Dictator. When a Dictator starts moving his troops closer to you--that is not a good thing. Lets face reality. Putin is a dictator. He was in office and then out--but still in control behind the scenes. Then he was in again. Obama on the other had will serve 8 years max with no chance of returning as President.
Russia and China are teaming up now. That is a joke! I don't think they want to provoke Germany and Japan into building up their Military's. Japan has already started i9ncreasing their Military budget in response to China being aggressive in the island dispute