What should the West do about Ukraine?

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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A paranoid public scares me more.

Them too, I deal with some of the survivalists in my Martial Arts Classes, sometimes I am amazed by them........

There are a lot of paranoid citizens here. Many don't trust the government. Yea Lia survivalist are whacko. Spend their time planning for the worst case scenario, instead of working toward solutions to our problems. They stockpile guns, ammo and supplies waiting for Armageddon or just the down fall of the US government. Never mind that the US government survived the Great Depression and WW-2. Never mind that the economy is much improved after the recession. Some distrust is healthy but many take it to the extreme. Just doom and gloom thought process. Negative thoughts usually breeds negative happenings.
Looks like the negotiations over Ukraine brought no results. Russia thinks it is ok to bring about change by military intimidation. Massing 10s of 1000s of troops toward the east. Conducting war games. Does Russia really want to own Ukraine? Ukraine is as fucked up as Iraq. I am so glad we got out of Iraq. I will be even happier when we get out of Afghanistan. Never ending civil wars. Russian troops and people will always be targets if they take the east. Just my opinion

Here's a little primer on some of the Ukrainian protesters: http://www.thenation.com/blog/178716/dark-side-ukraine-revolt

Cliff's: It's a complicated, and the Ukrainian "freedom fighters" aren't exact angelic devotees of liberal democracy.

Eric, that is why I oppose giving Ukraine $Billions. Maybe Russia and the west could have worked together to make Ukraine a better place. I don't think making them a part of Russia is the way to do it.
Russia has caved in a little and pulled back some of its 40,000 troops massed near the Eastern side according to news reports

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

Eric, that is why I oppose giving Ukraine $Billions. Maybe Russia and the west could have worked together to make Ukraine a better place. I don't think making them a part of Russia is the way to do it.
Russia has caved in a little and pulled back some of its 40,000 troops massed near the Eastern side according to news reports

The fools on either side jus wont give it up until they get some kind of a war going.

A NATO commander said today that he thought Russian troops were acting like they were going to invade the East. They were in a high state of readiness. If directed they could defeat the east in 3 to 5 days

Ukraine and USA and other government officials say Russia is paying pro Russian people in the east protest and take over buildings etc. Bloomburg reported yesterday that the Russian government wants investors to bring their money home to thwart future sanctions. I take this to mean that Russia knows they will invade the east and sanctions will therefore get worse

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

Ukraine and USA and other government officials say Russia is paying pro Russian people in the east protest and take over buildings etc. Bloomburg reported yesterday that the Russian government wants investors to bring their money home to thwart future sanctions. I take this to mean that Russia knows they will invade the east and sanctions will therefore get worse

And the USA government is funding and stirring up the other side. What's your point?

Did you see this article from The Associated Press of what our government is doing do undermine other sovereign nations?

US Secretly Created 'Cuban Twitter' To Stir Unrest

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Originally posted by unknown1002001

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And the USA government is funding and stirring up the other side. What's your point?

Did you see this article from The Associated Press of what our government is doing do undermine other sovereign nations?

[Link]

I think you forget who invaded whom. Also that Russia has amassed 10s of 1000s of Troops and armor on the East Ukraine border. Russia is saying cooperate or else. Who is saying we are stirring things up? Russia that is who. Ukraine wants our money. They should be free to take our money.
Cuba is a commie country where 100s of 1000s of them have fled to the USA over the years to be free. The USA is for freedom and human rights

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

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I think you forget who invaded whom.

I think you're forgetting that no one invaded anyone. As I've said countless times in this thread, the soldiers currently in Crimea have been there for more than a decade at the request of the Ukraine government.

Crimea was invaded by invitation of the Crimean People. Now Russia has it let them keep it, I cant see one good reason that justifies the death of one single NATO soldier, not yet anyway. They had a vote now let them live with it, we'll see if they have a change of heart then they have to learn to accept what they have done to themselves.

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Originally posted by demographer_2

Crimea was invaded by invitation of the Crimean People. Now Russia has it let them keep it, I cant see one good reason that justifies the death of one single NATO soldier, not yet anyway. They had a vote now let them live with it, we'll see if they have a change of heart then they have to learn to accept what they have done to themselves.

Well...Crimea has being trying to rejoin Russia since the 50's, so I'm pretty sure there won't be any regret. Having said that, it's estimated that about 70% of the population support reunification, but without having a legal and untampered vote we'll never know. If it is 70%, then I do truly feel bad for the 30% that don't want to, but thats how democracy works.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Well...Crimea has being trying to rejoin Russia since the 50's, so I'm pretty sure there won't be any regret. Having said that, it's estimated that about 70% of the population support reunification, but without having a legal and untampered vote we'll never know. If it is 70%, then I do truly feel bad for the 30% that don't want to, but thats how democracy works.

True. We here in the western hemisphere live our lives by majority rule.

I coulda been in the Ukraine right now... Dang it.
This guy runs a company that provides the security for a news station, and he tried to recruit me as part of a security team...

Sugarpie you never explain how Crimea can invite Russia in without the permission of the country they belong to--Ukraine?

It's a sad day if we are trumpeting Russia as a saviour of repressed peoples. Over a million ethnic Chechens may have something to say about it, as might Pussy Riot and a stack of murdered journalists.

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Originally posted by demographer_2

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True. We here in the western hemisphere live our lives by majority rule.

Rather impressive majorities of people in many countries around the world don't support equal rights (putting it very mildly in some cases) for homosexuals. Majority rule?

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Originally posted by NightCruiser

Sugarpie you never explain how Crimea can invite Russia in without the permission of the country they belong to--Ukraine?

I never said that the Crimean people invited the Russian troops in, I said the Ukrainian government invited the Russian troops.

In 1997, shortly after the breakup of the USSR both Ukraine and Russia claimed navel bases and equipment as their own in the Crimea region. This started the Black Sea Fleet Treaties. The treaty itself is hundreds of pages long, but the important points were that Russia received about 80% of the navel fleet, The Russian government gave the cash starved Ukraine government a bunch of money, and that Crimean ports were leased out to the now Russian fleets...an agreement which was actually renewed in 2010 , and set to expire in 2042. ALSO as part of the treaty, because the Crimea region was now pretty much defenceless, with the loss of 80% of the fleet to Russia, it was agreed between Ukraine and Russia that a maximum of 25,000 RUSSIAN soldiers would be stationed on the Crimea peninsula. At the time of the current uprising, about 20,000 troops were stationed in Crimea.

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Originally posted by ranging

It's a sad day if we are trumpeting Russia as a saviour of repressed peoples. Over a million ethnic Chechens may have something to say about it, as might Pussy Riot and a stack of murdered journalists.

I am not trumpeting Russia in the least little bit. The people of Crimea voted on whether or not they wanted to rejoin Russia. The Russians were more than happy to oblige them after the supposed vote. They the Russians treated it as if they had an invitation, the Ukraine was not given a choice if they wanted Russia to invade their homeland and take Crimea. So Putin kind of had an invasion by proxy, he doesn't care if it's ok'd by the west.

Putin doesn't care what the west thinks because Putin is worth $70 billion. Sanctions won't hurt Putin personally. Sugarpie we will wait and see if Russia invades the East