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What should the West do about Ukraine?

Starter: NightCruiser Posted: 10 years ago Views: 16.7K
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#4846017
The "Line" that Obama is moving is because there is growing pro Russian support in Ukraine. People are extremely frustrated at the current Ukraine government, and growing more and more disgruntled in the government every day...some feel they can't wait until the May 25th election, and/or they feel the election won't change anything. The average worker in Ukraine now makes less than $400 a month, and average rent on a 2 bedroom apartment is $500...do the math. There are whole families sharing apartments with other families just to barely get by.
I have a cam girl friend in Kiev, and she says its getting more and more scary there, more and more people are thinking that re-joining Russia is the best option because they are barely surviving. She's spent the last 4 years going to law school, has her degree, and can't get a job. She works on a farm part time to help her family, and is a cam model part time, and makes about $1200 a month...she has it good. She doesn't want to rejoin Russia, but she says lots of people do...especially outside of Kiev.

Its sad, and while I don't think rejoining Russia is the best option, that is what a lot of the people want, and who are we to tell them that they can't? Who are we to tell starving suffering people not to try and find a solution to make their lives better?
#4846092
Lvl 4
So Sugarpie is Russia Paradise or will Ukranians be trading one corrupt Slum for another?

http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/08/05/73105/biden-had-it-right-rural-russia.html

" KUVSHINOVO, Russia — The government administrator was bursting with optimism: More children are being born, many rubles will be invested in infrastructure and his region is weathering the global economic storm.

"The situation is so good," said Boris Zaitsev, a broad-shouldered man who spoke in a confident monotone.

Outside his office, some 170 miles northwest of Moscow, the front steps to the Soviet-era government building are falling into a pile of rubble. Deep, spine-rattling potholes that rival sections of Baghdad riddle the town's streets. The region's population has plummeted by more than a quarter.

Officials here like to point visitors to Kuvshinovo's new Russian Orthodox church, an elegant wooden structure. Work inside the church hasn't been finished, because the money ran out. Looters searching for icons and cash previously torched the office of another local church. Twice. A priest in a nearby village, who'd led an anti-alcoholism campaign, was burned to death with his family.

The area around this rural enclave is in steep decline; once-thriving fields are empty and the population is in free-fall. Along with many other towns and villages in vast rural Russia, it's a microcosm for a country that, according to recent studies, is withering away.

In Kuvshinovo and outlying hamlets, the population has dropped to 16,000 people from 22,000 in less than 20 years. Russia as a whole lost 12.3 million people from 1992 to 2008. An influx of immigrants, mainly from former Soviet territories, helped hide the extent of the problem. The population is now 142 million, but it would have been 136.3 million without that surge from outside.

The statistics help explain why Vice President Joe Biden struck such a sensitive nerve among Russia's ruling elite when he said recently that the country has "a shrinking population base; they have a withering economy," and added, "It's a very difficult thing to deal with, loss of empire."

Despite the Kremlin's posturing on the world stage and its hard line in what Russians call the "near abroad" — invading Georgia, shutting off natural gas to Ukraine, claiming a privileged sphere in other post-Soviet territories — the decay in the heartland suggests that Russia isn't a resurgent superpower so much as a nation that's trying not to come apart at the seams.

The mansions and gardens of old imperial Russia have faded or crumbled, as have many of the collective farms that fed communist Russia. Today, the hamlets dot a forsaken land of rampant poverty where men drink from morning to night. The interconnected crises of low fertility, high death rates and ragged infrastructure have left much of the nation barren.

Looking over the hayfields that lead to the onion dome and the glistening gold cross of a steeple a few miles outside Kuvshinovo, a Russian Orthodox priest mulled the question: What's happening to Russia?

"There are villages with only two people left, and others where nobody lives," Alexander Peshekhonov said, choosing his words carefully. Peshekhonov, his gray hair pulled back in a ponytail, added the obligatory caveat that, "Our country is great."

He then flicked a finger at his throat, a gesture meaning, "They drink."

When spring comes around, he said, the bodies of locals who fell drunkenly into the snowdrifts of winter are found in the pastures and roads. One man responsible for burning the church office in Kuvshinovo was caught in a market, selling icons and religious cassette tapes he'd swiped to raise money for vodka.

"If you read the newspapers and listen to our leaders' propaganda, you get the feeling that everything is OK," Peshekhonov said. "But I don't believe that."

Even darker times may lie ahead.

A major study that the United Nations released in April, authored by leading Russian experts, projected that Russia would lose at least 11 million more people by 2025. Another U.N.-sponsored report said last year that the population could fall to as low as 100 million in 2050.

That report cited a recent improvement in fertility but cautioned that, "while these favorable trends may last another five or six years, all recent forecasts . . . predict that Russia's population decline will only intensify."

"There's a risk that in the most negative situation, Russia will stop existing as a state," said Olga Isupova, a senior demographic researcher at the Higher School of Economics, a leading private Russian university in Moscow.

Asked whether that was really a possibility, Isupova told a reporter who was about to visit Kuvshinovo, "If you go out there and find something more optimistic, please tell me."

Down a dusty road and then a dirt path from Kuvshinovo, Dr. Anna Voronova holds medical clinics in the village of Pryamukhino. Sitting behind her desk in a dimly lit room with warped floors and chipped paint, Voronova said she saw a lot of people with drinking problems. She didn't mean just vodka and beer.

"They buy household cleaners, or solvents used to clean a machine, and drink it because it's cheap," she said. "It's not one or two people; it's many people."

There were 720 people living around Pryamukhino in 1990. Today, there are about 500, a decline caused in part by an exodus to Russia's cities, but mostly by the fact that deaths outnumber births.

The talk of alcoholism isn't confined to handwringing clergymen and small-town doctors. A study published this June examined three Russian industrial cities with typical mortality trends and found that during the 1990s, more than half of the deaths of those aged 15 to 54 were alcohol-related.

Read more here: http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2009/08/05/73105/biden-had-it-right-rural-russia.html#storylink=cpy...."
#4846106
Quote:
Originally posted by NightCruiser
So Sugarpie is Russia Paradise or will Ukranians be trading one corrupt Slum for another?


I never said it was their best option, in fact I said the opposite. What I said is that THEY feel its their best option, and who are we to tell them no, you can't do that.
[Deleted], SmellMyCheese find this awesome.
#4846281
Lvl 4
Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie
...
I never said it was their best option, in fact I said the opposite. What I said is that THEY feel its their best option, and who are we to tell them no, you can't do that.


So you are saying the Crimean and all other Ukrainians, who don't want to be ruled by a Dictator, just have to pack up and move? If there were just one person then I don't thin k that one person should be sentenced to be ruled by a Dictator
#4846327
Quote:
Originally posted by NightCruiser
...

So you are saying the Crimean and all other Ukrainians, who don't want to be ruled by a Dictator, just have to pack up and move? If there were just one person then I don't thin k that one person should be sentenced to be ruled by a Dictator


I'm saying its very difficult, I'm saying that perhaps new borders may have to be drawn up, but I'm also saying that those people that support reunification of Russia have a right to do so. You need to remember that the Ukraine was PART OF RUSSIA for over 300 years, so there is history and tradition there. They re-drew borders when the Ukraine split from Russia, they may have to do it again....and yes, people will have to move.

How do you think people on the losing side of the US civil war felt? Having to live in a country that they didn't like and support.
#4846558
Lvl 4
Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie
...

I'm saying its very difficult, I'm saying that perhaps new borders may have to be drawn up, but I'm also saying that those people that support reunification of Russia have a right to do so. You need to remember that the Ukraine was PART OF RUSSIA for over 300 years, so there is history and tradition there. They re-drew borders when the Ukraine split from Russia, they may have to do it again....and yes, people will have to move.

How do you think people on the losing side of the US civil war felt? Having to live in a country that they didn't like and support.


So you don't think Countries nearby would be Alarmed that a Dictator would annex a nearby country? This same Dictator who said the break up of the Soviet Union was a tragedy? Seems Putin thinks Russia's road back to greatness is taking over other countries instead of what we think is the road--free enterprise. Yea the History of the Soviet ways is what is causing the Alarm bells to go off in the region. The way the Russian leaders are talking is adding to it. Russia is desperate to get back to the Soviet ways. They see Western influence growing and they fear losing control of their population to free thinking. I think this is more about controlling others than protecting Pro Russians outside the country
#4846613
Living next door to a authoritarian regime is fairly common actually, and lets not forget that Ukraine was once part of one. Again...the rest of your post isn't a question, or fact, its the same conspiracy theory and fear mongering that you were posting earlier. Just accept the fact that there are many many Ukrainian people that would like to rejoin Russia.


Dictatorships/Authoritarian Regimes:
Madagascar
Jordan
Nigeria
Morocco
Ethiopia
Kuwait
Fiji
Burkina Faso
Libya
Cuba
Comoros
Gabon
Togo
Algeria
Cameroon
Gambia
Angola
Oman
Swaziland
Rwanda
Kazakhstan
Qatar
Belarus
Azerbaijan
China
Côte d'Ivoire
Vietnam
Bahrain
Congo
Guinea
Zimbabwe
Djibouti
U.A.E.
Yemen
Tajikistan
Afghanistan
Sudan
Eritrea
DR Congo
Laos
Guinea-Bissau
Syria
Iran
Central African Republic
Saudi Arabia
Equatorial Guinea
Burma
Russia
Uzbekistan
Turkmenistan
Chad
North Korea
#4846626
Lvl 4
Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie
Living next door to a authoritarian regime is fairly common actually, and lets not forget that Ukraine was once part of one. Again...the rest of your post isn't a question, or fact, its the same conspiracy theory and fear mongering that you were posting earlier. Just accept the fact that there are many many Ukrainian people that would like to rejoin Russia.


Dictatorships/Authoritarian Regimes:
Madagascar
Jordan
Nigeria
Morocco
Ethiopia
Kuwait
Fiji
Burkina Faso
Libya
Cuba
Comoros
Gabon
Togo
Algeria
Cameroon
Gambia
Angola
Oman
Swaziland
Rwanda
Kazakhstan
Qatar
Belarus
Azerbaijan
China
Côte d'Ivoire
Vietnam
Bahrain
Congo
Guinea
Zimbabwe
Djibouti
U.A.E.
Yemen
Tajikistan
Afghanistan
Sudan
Eritrea
DR Congo
Laos
Guinea-Bissau
Syria
Iran
Central African Republic
Saudi Arabia
Equatorial Guinea
Burma
Russia
Uzbekistan
Turkmenistan
Chad
North Korea


Ya how many of those have lots of Nukes(short and long range) and a large Military? The countries around Russia don't think it is fear mongering. They want our assurance that NATO will defend them. So now we have to move more firepower in which increases the chance of a Super power confrontation. Russia can't defeat NATO without resorting to Nukes. More Sanctions will be put in place today. More if Russia invades the east. How desperate will Putin get as Russia becomes even more impoverished?
#4846671
Quote:
Originally posted by NightCruiser
...

Ya how many of those have lots of Nukes(short and long range) and a large Military? The countries around Russia don't think it is fear mongering. They want our assurance that NATO will defend them. So now we have to move more firepower in which increases the chance of a Super power confrontation. Russia can't defeat NATO without resorting to Nukes. More Sanctions will be put in place today. More if Russia invades the east. How desperate will Putin get as Russia becomes even more impoverished?


Oh please. Just stop. Even your fear mongering theories don't make any sense. Russia is going to invade counties or nuke countries because they are impoverished? Explain to me how that works exactly?
#4846703
Lvl 4
Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie
...

Oh please. Just stop. Even your fear mongering theories don't make any sense. Russia is going to invade counties or nuke countries because they are impoverished? Explain to me how that works exactly?


Russia might just come after those making them suffer. Could become terrorist themselves. Pretty much what they are doing in East Ukraine right now. Something bad happens. We blame them. We shoot at them. They launch missiles at us and miss and hit Canada
#4846707
You do know what impoverished means right? It means without resources.
#4846762
I just hope that Canada stays out of it, I am only a kilometer out of the US. This is to close for my likes. I grew up in the states, but I live in Canada now.
#4846779
I hardly think the Russian government is impoverished.

It really is a tricky situation over there - there are plenty of Ukrainian people who are pro-Russia and plenty who are not. The ones that are pro-Russia have simply had enough of the way their country is currently being run, so it some ways it's like they're trying to elect a new controlling political party. It seems very bizarre to me that one country can suddenly decide to become part of another, but I guess these types of decisions/conflicts aren't exactly new.
#4846829
Quote:
Originally posted by jhope1
It seems very bizarre to me that one country can suddenly decide to become part of another, but I guess these types of decisions/conflicts aren't exactly new.

Its basically the beginnings of a civil war, only in this case rather than forming their own government, the side that wants to break away wants to join an existing country.
#4846851
Lvl 24
Quote:
Originally posted by demographer_2
I just hope that Canada stays out of it, I am only a kilometer out of the US. This is to close for my likes. I grew up in the states, but I live in Canada now.


Hmm... I don't see how you living in Canada and your proximity to the US has anything to do with the Ukraine?
#4846868
Lvl 8
Quote:
Originally posted by Bangledesh
...

Hmm... I don't see how you living in Canada and your proximity to the US has anything to do with the Ukraine?


Come to think of it, I live awfully close to Cuba. That's probably affecting some totally unrelated topic on the other side of the planet right now.
#4847038
Lvl 4
Quote:
Originally posted by Davey45
...

Come to think of it, I live awfully close to Cuba. That's probably affecting some totally unrelated topic on the other side of the planet right now.


Well if we go to war with Russia. Russia has long range Missiles that can reach the US and Canada. Missile carrying Russian subs. We almost went to war with Russia over Cuba. Russia backed down during the Cuban Missile crisis. Will they back down again? I don't think sanctions will stop Russia. King Obama doesn't seem to confident they will either. What is the difference between Ukraine pro Russians and surrounding countries that have pro Russian unhappy people?. Russia can't take care of a lot of it's people already inside Russia. Putin is rich way beyond many Russian people ever dreamed of. I don't think this is about pro Russians. This is about trying to put together a powerful country again. Really, if you cared about your people, wouldn't it bother you that so many live in slums while you're hoarding (reportedly) $70 billion? Would you risk ruining many of them financially due to Sanctions?
So it looks like Russia wants to expand. Pro Russians elsewhere will say--why not us? Subverting those countries will start. NATO cannot stand idly by when treaty signed countries start to fall. Just a slippery slope that Russia has embarked on
#4847052
Please, don't anyone answer him, lets just let this thread die in peace now.
F1098, unknown1002001 find this awesome.
#4847070
Lvl 5
When did these other countries ask for our help exactly? Let them come to us and then we should Bill them.
Fix our economy in the same go. We are sitting on a literal army of trained specialists from construction to military presence to paper pushers. Hire out and charge appropriate rates depending on the job. Just need to write out a Morales clause so as to ensure we don't put our own people in compromising situations
#4847071
Lvl 5
Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie
You do know what impoverished means right? It means without resources.

There is always a resource to be traded or earned, Afghanistan and similar countries have the oil and mines, Africa has the trees and gems, China has the technology. The point is that there is always something of worth that can be negotiated
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