What should the West do about Ukraine?

Quote:

Originally posted by omuh

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So the guys in Crimea were Russian forces but the guys in Eastern Ukraine who have the exact same uniform and russian equipment, and the same course of action (taking key public buildings) are not ? Maybe so but it's less and less likely.

I said ages ago (and this is accepted as the truth by every media outlet and government) that there were approximately 20,000 Russian troops in Crimea as part of a treaty settlement back in 1991. These are the troops that along with Crimean pro Russian supporters helped take over Ukrainian military bases located within Crimea.

Some of these these troops could be special forces I suppose, but honestly I don't understand how it makes a difference if they're special forces or not. Regardless, give or take a few hundred there are only 20K Russian troops in Ukraine. So, sure its possible that some of the troops loaded up into transports, and snuck into Eastern Ukraine in unmarked uniforms and started up some pro Russian protests. With the mass of Ukrainian forces stacked up at the Crimea border, I find it somewhat difficult to believe that the Ukrainians would just let those transports through though. So either they snuck through from Crimea and traveled across the country, leaving the bases they just took over vulnerable, or different Russian forces crossed the border in the East (again with a mass of Ukrainian forces there to protect it) Or they were Ukrainian citizens.
Whats more likely, that these 20,000 troops are sneaking around the country unnoticed, that different Russian troops are crossing the Eastern border, or that the people involved in the protests in Eastern Ukraine are Russian trained and backed Ukrainian citizens.

Over the last 2 decades, Russian forces based out of Crimea could have been training and supplying them with equipment. This DOES NOT make them Russian special forces, it makes them Pro Russian Militants, just as I originally said. And supports what I've been saying ALL ALONG that there is a certain level of desire among the Ukrainian people to rejoin Russian. What that percentage is, I don't know, but it does exist, and anyone who thinks differently has their head buried in the sand.

The Russian occupiers in the East are refusing to abide by the agreement and leave government buildings

Fixed it for you. I know how you sometimes forget to put the...what do you call it again...oh yeah...truth in you posts.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

The Pro Russian supporters in the East are refusing to abide by the agreement and leave government buildings

The guys protesting are as Sugarpie has said, pro russian militants, the Spetsnaz/GRU are doing the behind the scenes organising, co-ordination and supplying. That is what SF does, they train and coordinate local militia. Special Operations do the door kicking and looking awsome. Even Russia at this stage isnt silly enough to use SO, it is simply to overt and will not gain the result they are working towards. Russia will continue to destabilise the country and get Ukraine to fire on their own people. Russia will then claim that they are moving in to protect the Russian people trapped in the country and the UN will write a strongly worded letter stating their objection.

Quote:

Originally posted by lambie_49

The guys protesting are as Sugarpie has said, pro russian militants, the Spetsnaz/GRU are doing the behind the scenes organising, co-ordination and supplying. That is what SF does, they train and coordinate local militia. Special Operations do the door kicking and looking awsome. Even Russia at this stage isnt silly enough to use SO, it is simply to overt and will not gain the result they are working towards. Russia will continue to destabilise the country and get Ukraine to fire on their own people. Russia will then claim that they are moving in to protect the Russian people trapped in the country and the UN will write a strongly worded letter stating their objection.

Perhaps, but none of this can happen without a fairly sizeable portion of the Ukraine population supporting reunification with Russia.

The Special Forces are part of Special Operations.
Special Operations is the umbrella, Special Forces are one of the fingers.

In the US, yes they come under the jsoc, however they conduct different roles and the requirement to join is different.
A good way to look at it is Tier 1 (Delta, Team 6, ODA, Special Air Service) is your SO
Rangers, Marine Recon, Some elements of Green Berets SF

The ODAs (Operational Detachment- Alpha) are SF.
ODAs are the field teams, supported by ODBs (OD-Bravo), which provide logistics and other support. You've discredited yourself by including the ODAs and SF as separate entities.

And yes. What part of "same umbrella, different finger" made you think I needed you to explain to me that there are different requirements to join the Batts vs Groups vs the CAG, given their differing (but overlapping) skill sets and profiles?

And only POGs and civilians call SF the Green Berets.

What made me think, probably the fact that there is more then just you and me on this forum discussing the topic, not everyone has a military background.

I appologise for not being all over the US military break down, down here in the deep south, we only have two SO units and no SF, so other then working with the ODA'S and Team 6, im not all over their individual unit break down

I always find it cute when grunts throw POG out there like they know what it is . I know you've adapted it to be persons other then grunts, like its a badge of honour or something. The history behind POG is posted on garrison, and the only people who can be a pog, is the infantry, artillery or cavalry.

So can we PLEASE stop having this pathetic little pissing contest and go back to discussing how Ukraine with the help of the western world, is going to dominate Russia?

If you don't properly know about a subject, then don't try to dumb it down for other people who you assume know less than you. You only confuse others and yourself. As evidenced by your continued use of ODAs as a separate entity than Special Forces.

If you worked with an ODA, then you worked with SF. And the are SF Groups (or companies) in Kentucky, Florida, Texas, West Virginia, Alabama, and Mississippi. So I don't know what you meant by the deep south only has 2 SOF units and no SF. There's more SF down there than there are anything else. Hell, I've got friends under the SOF umbrella in Texas.

And yeah, no it doesn't. The only reference to Posted on Garrison is on Wikipedia. And its citation (which is a super reliable Listserv post) doesn't even note it, it only identifies Persons Other than Grunts. And originally, it came from both the word for prostitute and the fact that people used candy and such to lure prostitutes (hence, Pogey Bait.) Unless you're Australian, in which case "Posted on Garrison" still identifies non-combat personnel.

But sure, I'm willing to be done with this dialogue if you are.

Yeah by deep south, I mean Australian. We're way the hell south, nice place, but along way from anything.
I don't reference Wikipedia for anything. There is a difference imo between pog in its traditional meaning and non-combat. I have a deep dislike against anyone that would seek to lessen the contribution of another corp/person to make themselves feel better. The fact is, you need everyone to do their jobs in order for you to do yours.
But yes, im happy to discuss the differences between our military's in pm (does this thing do pm?)

Australia has more than 2 Special Ops units.

Commando units, the Australian SAS, Aviation squadrons (like the US's Nightstalkers), CAG/GROM-like Counter-Terror units, as well as a host of support units, and such.

And then in Australia, POG still fully identifies (and always has identified) non-combat troops.

PMs are sent up where it says "send pm" in the upper right of individual posts, or you can open the user profile. However, I'm not sure what else there is to discuss. I'm fairly tired of this.

Australia has 2 units, the SASR and Commandoes, everything else is attached to them or contained organically. Commandoes hold the domestic counter terrorism role. There is no unit like nightstalkers, there simply isn't the equipment or budget, instead they work closely with regular aviation units to fulfil that role

And I thought we were off topic before. I didn't understand anything in the last few posts. POGS, SASR, SAS, CAG/GROM, ODA....none of that means anything to me...you might as well be writing in Arabic.

I'll let Bangledesh explain the terms im not 100% on.
POG - generally a Person other then Grunt, used to describe support staff/non-combat roles
SASR - Special Air Service Regiment - The Australian version of the British SAS
SAS - Special Air Service - Has a history in WW2 and conducted the first real successful counter terrorism raid in London in 1980

Quote:

Originally posted by Lia

Jews ordered to register in east Ukraine

[Link]

This headline hits pretty close to home for me being I am part Jew, it kinda lines up with good old Hitler and Stalin. I am a practicing Catholic, but I am of Jewish heritage. And we jus recently had a white neo-Nazi/Klansman nut job here in this country kill people because he thought that they were Jewish. I don't have a tremendous amount of Hebrew in me so I am not worried but does it matter to someone who hates the Jews? And this morning on the radio and here online, Vlad Putin confesses that the armed men in uniform that were in Crimea with no insignia were Russian Special Forces, hmmmm like we didn't see that one coming. Now we know for sure that what he was trying to do was to destabilize Eastern Ukraine. And if they can get people in other countries to argue about it the end result is that we are not paying attention to the resurgent Russian ambitions...

This has been proven to be a hoax. (I was lazy and only linked to the first article Google found.)

http://time.com/67272/ukraine-jew-register-donetsk/

Quote:

Originally posted by unknown1002001

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This has been proven to be a hoax. (I was lazy and only linked to the first article Google found.)

[Link]

If all of this is a hoax then you have renewed my faith in my fellow man, it wouldn't have affected me but I am/was concerned about all of the innocent people it might have affected.

The USA giving Russia days to stop the violence in the East or else "crippling" sanctions will be put in place. Russia is saying they will support their businesses financially. Ya lets see how long they can do that haha

I think that the world especially the Russians are getting tired of all of the threats, if Obama was going to do something it should have already been done.

Funny a Russian leader said today that Pro Russian forces would leave the building if and when the National protesters leave. I thought Russia had no control over the protesters? haha Russian fighter jets crossed over into the East. Obama now says if Russia invades the East then severe sanctions will go into effect. I agree Lia, OBama keeps moving the line. First it was if Russia didn't follow the agreement reached in Geneva. Now it is about Russia invading that would trigger sanctions. I really think Obama's heart is not into this. Mostly he is being pushed by Republicans. The East is not exactly a good investment for the West. But then again many think Russia won't stop with owning just Ukraine and parts of Georgia. Many believe they will start destabilizing other nearby countries