What should the West do about Ukraine?

I think for the most part the People of the US are tired of war, from what I have read they are tired of being the worlds policeman. Money can be given the People of the Ukraine, some physical supplies, but no troops, at least not at this point in time. Maybe something farther down the road could happen to change that, jus not in the immediate future.

Interesting that WW2 started with Germany annexing other countries. Hmmmm sounds familiar:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II#Background

In Europe, Germany and Italy were becoming bolder. In March 1938, Germany annexed Austria, again provoking little response from other European powers.[41] Encouraged, Hitler began pressing German claims on the Sudetenland, an area of Czechoslovakia with a predominantly ethnic German population; and soon Britain and France followed the counsel of prime minister Neville Chamberlain and conceded this territory to Germany in the Munich Agreement, which was made against the wishes of the Czechoslovak government, in exchange for a promise of no further territorial demands.[42] Soon afterwards, Germany and Italy forced Czechoslovakia to cede additional territory to Hungary and Poland.[43]

Although all of Germany's stated demands had been satisfied by the agreement, privately Hitler was furious that British interference had prevented him from seizing all of Czechoslovakia in one operation. In subsequent speeches Hitler attacked British and Jewish "war-mongers" and in January 1939 secretly ordered a major build-up of the German navy to challenge British naval supremacy. In March 1939, Germany invaded the remainder of Czechoslovakia and subsequently split it into the German Protectorate of Bohemia and Moravia and a pro-German client state, the Slovak Republic.[44] Hitler also delivered an ultimatum to Lithuania, forcing the concession of the Klaipėda Region.
German Foreign Minister Ribbentrop signing the Nazi–Soviet non-aggression pact. Standing behind him are Molotov and the Soviet leader Joseph Stalin, 1939

Alarmed, and with Hitler making further demands on the Free City of Danzig, France and Britain guaranteed their support for Polish independence; when Italy conquered Albania in April 1939, the same guarantee was extended to Romania and Greece.[45] Shortly after the Franco-British pledge to Poland, Germany and Italy formalised their own alliance with the Pact of Steel.[46] Hitler accused Britain and Poland of trying to "encircle" Germany and renounced the Anglo-German Naval Agreement and the German–Polish Non-Aggression Pact.

In August 1939, Germany and the Soviet Union signed the Molotov–Ribbentrop Pact,[47] a non-aggression treaty with a secret protocol. The parties gave each other rights to "spheres of influence" (western Poland and Lithuania for Germany; eastern Poland, Finland, Estonia, Latvia and Bessarabia for the USSR). It also raised the question of continuing Polish independence.[48] The agreement was crucial to Hitler because it assured that Germany would not have to face the prospect of a two-front war, as it had in World War I, after it defeated Poland....."

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Interesting that WW2 started with Germany annexing other countries. Hmmmm sounds familiar:

Umm, don't forget that the only reason Hitler got into power was because Germany was forced to repay war restitutions and ultimately their economy collapsed from hyperinflation and this caused the people to became desperate for something better. At the end of the day all of our economies are built around the concept of non-stop growth, but they do not take into account we live in a world with finite resources. (Of course I'm summarizing things here, because I don't feel like writing a doctoral thesis. I would rather be looking at naked woman. )

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Interesting that WW2 started with Germany annexing other countries. Hmmmm sounds familiar:

Except in this case Russia hasn't annexed any countries, and there isn't a mass "ethnic cleansing" genocide. Other than those two trivial facts the current situation is almost exactly like WW2.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

...
Except in this case Russia hasn't annexed any countries, and there isn't a mass "ethnic cleansing" genocide. Other than those two trivial facts the current situation is almost exactly like WW2.

I didn't know

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

...
Except in this case Russia hasn't annexed any countries, and there isn't a mass "ethnic cleansing" genocide. Other than those two trivial facts the current situation is almost exactly like WW2.

I didn't know you were Eric's boss. Close this thread! and Poof it was closed Obviously he wasn't going to close it on his own because he just posted to it.
Russia took over part of Georgia. Now they annexed UKraine/Crimea. Then they will control the rest of Ukraine--if sanctions don't work. What is going to happen to the Ukrainian people who don't love Russia? We shall see. If we ignored the situation it could become just like the lead up to WW2

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

...

I didn't know...

I didn't know you were Eric's boss. Close this thread! and Poof it was closed Obviously he wasn't going to close it on his own because he just posted to it.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

**EDIT** Oh...you're talking about the rape thread. Hey...I'm not the one that brought up demonic possession as a justification for rape, and then went on to discuss how demonic possession and other supernatural things are possible.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Now they annexed UKraine/Crimea.

Technically true, but not like you believe it to have happened. The people of Crimea voted to rejoin Russia. Not a single unauthorized troop crossed the border, and not a single shot was fired. That certainly doesn't sound like a hostile takeover to me.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

Then they will control the rest of Ukraine--if sanctions don't work.

Speculation at best.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

If we ignored the situation it could become just like the lead up to WW2

It could, but it just as likely could not. Its just as likely that North Korea could take over countries and become like the lead up to WW2. There is no significant reason to believe that Putin or Russia has motives similar to Hitler and Germany. You're simply (once again) pushing your personal belief as fact.

A LOT of people believe in the Super Natural. I wasn't just talking about Rape but other evils that go on in this world. I also didn't say the demons are a justification for crimes. I said the Super Natural can try and influence people into doing something good or bad. You still have a choice as to where to do good or bad. Therefore you are not exempt from responsibility and punishment if you CHOOSE the bad. I think Demons are most successful with people who are at low points in their lives--depressed, jobless etc. I don't care how much schooling you have. I don't care if you are a Einstein scientist. We are not even a spec of sand in this vast Universe. Is our Sky blue? No it is actually red. Our eyes see it as blue. We don't know even half of what we think we know. So I wouldn't be so quick to rule out the Supernatural
No I am not simply pushing my belief as fact. That is why I say word like "could" and possible etc Russia is showing signs(in words and deeds) of wanting to expand and control the region through force and intimation. You have to face reality Sugarpie. NATO commanders have said Russia is now our enemy. No amount of you saying Russia had a right to annex Crimea is going to change the fact that Russia ruined the progress it made with the West. NATO has to be prepared for all possibilities now
Still you bossed Eric. Close this thread! haha

I'm not going to address the supernatural mumbo jumbo because getting off topic is what got the other thread closed.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

No I am not simply pushing my belief as fact. That is why I say word like "could" and possible etc

But you don't. You JUST said: "Then they will control the rest of Ukraine--if sanctions don't work."
You don't know this? You have absolutely zero proof or evidence that this will happen. You believe it will happen, and you're telling the rest of us it will happen as if its fact. You've done this over and over and over again, making assumptions about situations that you couldn't possibly know the outcome to, and in many cases completely ignoring the true facts to come up with your theories.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

No amount of you saying Russia had a right to annex Crimea

would you please read what I've be been saying since day one in this thread, and absorb it into that brain of yours.
I have NEVER said that its ok for Russia to hostilely take over the Ukraine or any other country. I have not once said that Russia is a great place to live. I've not once said that Putin is a good guy.
What I have said, and this is where you seem to stop paying attention to me is this: If the people of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine want to rejoin Russia (and we know there is a growing percentage of them every day) then who are you and the rest of us to say no? You have not once answered this question, instead you claim that Russia is taking over the Ukraine by force, and this is simply not true. They may be helping the separatists with a plan and tactics....I don't know, and neither do you, but they certainly haven't pointed a gun to people head and told them they have to separate from Ukraine.
Now...would you please...after 35 pages and without adding some fear mongering non factual statement, answer my question? Who are you, and who is Nato to say to those people that want to re-join Russia, that they can't? What right does Nato or any other organization or government have to tell these people no?

I was not "bossed," NC, I was tired of reading posts that were complete nonsense and had nothing to do with the original topic. I quoted SP and posted in that thread to let people know why it was closed.

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discuss how demonic possession and other supernatural things are possible.

That would be a great thread idea



On topic, what Putin is trying to do now is the keep Ukraine destabilized (with political comments, military manoeuvres at the border and probably support to "russian activists" on the field) to avoid that a legitimate government is elected. If that happens, Ukraine won't be that weakened anymore. I doesn't mean its problems will go away but at least it would keep Putin from interfering.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

I'm not going to address the supernatural mumbo jumbo because getting off topic is what got the other thread closed.

...
But you don't. You JUST said: "Then they will control the rest of Ukraine--if sanctions don't work."
You don't know this? You have absolutely zero proof or evidence that this will happen. You believe it will happen, and you're telling the rest of us it will happen as if its fact. You've done this over and over and over again, making assumptions about situations that you couldn't possibly know the outcome to, and in many cases completely ignoring the true facts to come up with your theories.

...
would you please read what I've be been saying since day one in this thread, and absorb it into that brain of yours.
I have NEVER said that its ok for Russia to hostilely take over the Ukraine or any other country. I have not once said that Russia is a great place to live. I've not once said that Putin is a good guy.
What I have said, and this is where you seem to stop paying attention to me is this: If the people of Crimea and the rest of Ukraine want to rejoin Russia (and we know there is a growing percentage of them every day) then who are you and the rest of us to say no? You have not once answered this question, instead you claim that Russia is taking over the Ukraine by force, and this is simply not true. They may be helping the separatists with a plan and tactics....I don't know, and neither do you, but they certainly haven't pointed a gun to people head and told them they have to separate from Ukraine.
Now...would you please...after 35 pages and without adding some fear mongering non factual statement, answer my question? Who are you, and who is Nato to say to those people that want to re-join Russia, that they can't? What right does Nato or any other organization or government have to tell these people no?

In this country there is usually a silent majority who get pushed around by the lesser number but highly vocal and sometimes violent minority

yep...just what I figured...failure to answer my question again.

Jus for the sake of admitting it I do believe in ghosts and stuff, and that is where I am going to end that conversation for another time, and another thread.

It had already been observed and proven by his own mouth, Vladimir Putin is trying to rebuild the Soviet Union, http://www.bbc.com/news/magazine-26769481 . The title of this story is "Vladimir Putin: The rebuilding of ‘Soviet’ Russia", It details the rise of Vladimir Putin. It's not a question on if they are trying to rebuild The Soviet Union, but who, why, and how are they doing it. This person is going to be around for a long time, we had better get inside his head for our own good.

Thank you Lia. This is exactly how I see the situation. Suggest that all who have contributed to this thread read it carefully.

Thanks again !

F..

Quote:

Originally posted by Lia

Jus for the sake of admitting it I do believe in ghosts and stuff, and that is where I am going to end that conversation for another time, and another thread.

It had already been observed and proven by his own mouth, Vladimir Putin is trying to rebuild the Soviet Union,[Link] . The title of this story is "Vladimir Putin: The rebuilding of ‘Soviet’ Russia", It details the rise of Vladimir Putin. It's not a question on if they are trying to rebuild The Soviet Union, but who, why, and how are they doing it. This person is going to be around for a long time, we had better get inside his head for our own good.

Quote:

Originally posted by F1098

Thank you Lia. This is exactly how I see the situation. Suggest that all who have contributed to this thread read it carefully.

Thanks again !

F..

...

I pretty much stopped reading it after the first paragraph. Sad to see the BBC running a story with a major fact error in the first line of their story. I know what they're trying to say, but the fact still remains that Russia has not and did not invade Crimea. Their troops may occupy it, but they didn't not invade it...there is a difference and its significant.

All I can do is to trust that the publishers get their facts straight, if they are mistaken then they need to be corrected. All I could do was to post the best information that I could find. If they are wrong then I stand corrected. Either way I do not trust Putin. I am not going to argue bout it like some of our members do. it isn't worth it to me.

One need look no farther than Putin's own words, including his speech to the Duma this year in which he repeated his goal of "protecting" all Russian speakers no matter where they live. Since the Soviet Union went way beyond Russia's current borders, all adjacent countries have been put on notice.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lia

All I can do is to trust that the publishers get their facts straight, if they are mistaken then they need to be corrected. All I could do was to post the best information that I could find. If they are wrong then I stand corrected. Either way I do not trust Putin.

Some people get off on the constant arguments (not speaking bout Sugarpie), I am not one of those people. I like to have a certain amount of faith in the press.

Quote:

Originally posted by Lia

All I can do is to trust that the publishers get their facts straight, if they are mistaken then they need to be corrected. All I could do was to post the best information that I could find. If they are wrong then I stand corrected. Either way I do not trust Putin. I am not going to argue bout it like some of our members do. it isn't worth it to me.

I'm not blaming you Lia, I'm simply stating that the first line of the article is not factual. I agree that Putin probably is trying to put the USSR back together...at least somewhat, but that line ruins the credibility of the article for me.

So the countdown to WW3 begins:

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2014-05-06/u-s-alerts-asia-to-russia-s-increased-long-range-bomber-patrols.html

U.S. Alerts Asia to Russia’s Long-Range Bomber Patrols
By Michael Heath May 6, 2014 5:10 AM ET

"The commander of U.S. air forces in the Pacific said Russia has “increased drastically” its long-range bomber patrols in northeast Asia as ties with America’s allies deteriorate over upheaval in Ukraine.

General Herbert Carlisle said an F-15 fighter jet had intercepted a Russian “Bear,” a designation for the Tupolev Tu-95 strategic bomber, that flew toward Guam, where the U.S. has military facilities, east of the Philippines. He said at the Center for Strategic and International Studies in Washington that Russia also had boosted maritime activity.

“What Russia is doing in Ukraine and Crimea has a direct effect on what is happening in Asia-Pacific,” Carlisle said, according to a video of his remarks yesterday. “Some of the things we’ve seen is their long-range aviation, and the increase in that. They’ve come with their long-range aviation out to the coast of California. They circumnavigated Guam.”

The news of a step-up in Russian pressure in the region follows U.S. President Barack Obama’s visit last month to Japan and South Korea, allies that host American bases.

Since overcoming the biggest protests of his 14-year-rule to win a third term in 2012, Russian President Vladimir Putin has reasserted his power at home and abroad. Even at the risk of sanctions that could worsen what the International Monetary Fund has described as an economy in recession, Russians see his defiance of the West over Ukraine as a sign of strength, reinforcing his image as a leader who restored his country’s greatness from the post-Communism chaos of the 1990s.
Photographer: Andrey Rudakov/Bloomberg

Vladimir Putin, Russia's president.
Japan, Korea

“Ukraine and Crimea is a challenge for us, and it’s a challenge for us in the Asia-Pacific as well as Europe,” Carlisle said. “The number of long-range aviation patrols that have gone around the Japanese islands as well as around Korea have increased drastically.”

Russia’s ability to contribute to the development of the Asia-Pacific region has been “badly compromised” by its annexation of Crimea, U.S. Assistant Secretary of State for East Asian and Pacific Affairs Daniel Russel said at a briefing today in Hong Kong.

“It is unacceptable for large countries to use force against small neighbors with impunity and we look to the international community, including countries in the Asia-Pacific region, to send a strong signal to Russia that it should reverse course and use peaceful means to address its border disputes,” Russel said.
Military Drills

Putin’s demonstrations of strength prompted Japan to scramble fighter jets for seven consecutive days in April in response to what the Asian nation’s defense chief described as “abnormal” Russian flights. Minister Itsunori Onodera said the patrols were more frequent than during the Cold War, Kyodo reported. Russia responded that the flights were in accordance with international law and urged Japan to return to talks with Russia on avoiding dangerous military activity.

Japan will stage an island defense drill around its southwestern region starting May 10, the Defense Ministry said. The announcement followed a Voice of Russia report that China and Russia would hold a joint drill in the East China Sea in late May.

Russia’s Foreign Ministry on April 29 also criticized Japan’s “clumsy” sanctions in response to events in Ukraine. It said in a statement that the penalties were imposed by the government in Tokyo under “external pressure,” while stopping short of specifying the U.S.

Carlisle said one of the challenges for the region was Russia’s lack of transparency on its military maneuvers. “What’s happening in Ukraine today is causing some significant concerns into Asia-Pacific,” he said. ...."