How Bad Is American Health Care...Really?

Ive changed my mind Its not too bad yet give Obama a little more time then it will be truly bad!

Quote:

Originally posted by Assman!

Ive changed my mind Its not too bad yet give Obama a little more time then it will be truly bad!

Haven't you got a shotgun to load?

My Canadian And British relatives have no complaints with their own systems. Ours is just fine.... until you get sick. Then try to switch insurance! No takers. File a legit claim and watch your premium increase dramatically next year.
I typed in 'affordable health care' at Google. Went to the first seven sites listed. The least expensive plan for this non-smoking 48 yr old a family history of migraines was $410 a mth.

Canada?
How many illegal Mexican immigrants do you cover?
There's your difference.

Any way the current reform plans are a thinly veiled power grab.
Waste is not addressed and nothing takes effect until 2013 when the current president is reelected

@DaveWa: I'm super impressed. You are one of the only people I've heard of that has great health insurance and who still sees the problem. That takes a lot of ability to see beyond yourself which the vast majority lack.

It shocks and saddens me that so many people profit so much off of peoples health. People are suffering and going bankrupt left and right while these insurance people who are absolutely nothing more then middle men line their pockets with gold. A health insurance system that is "for profit" is just ridiculous in my mind. They don't offer a product or a service. They just collect the money the people pay in and pool it together, shave massive profits off the top, then dish it back out as needed. The same thing could be accomplished with a national health fund which collects the money and distributes it except without scraping massive profits off the top.

Capitalism is fuckin great when we're talking private industry, manufacturing, sales. When we're talking peoples health profit shouldn't even find it's way into the equation except for the doctors, nurses and people who provide said health care and even then it shouldn't be excessive profit.

Quote:

Originally posted by J-Swiss

Capitalism is fuckin great when we're talking private industry, manufacturing, sales. When we're talking peoples health profit shouldn't even find it's way into the equation except for the doctors, nurses and people who provide said health care and even then it shouldn't be excessive profit.

Who are you going to anoint the person who defines "excessive?"

The truth is the way healthcare is delivered in the US is nothing near capitalism and that's the reason that prices are rising to the point of unsustainability.

the health care system is great it just needs to be a bit more affordable as the profession could take a pay cut to help those in need and it would not kill them i often wonder if they have taken an oath to medicine of capitolism

IMHO ..the only way to start bringing down the cost of health insurance ...

most doctors have spent the first 11-15 years of their adult life in school and are often half a million dollars or more in debt. They have every right to charge for what they do.

the problem ... how often do you hear of insurance companies losing money as a whole? they charge doctors on both sides ... dictate what the doctor can charge ...and charge the doctor for malpractice at the same time. To make up for the loss in revenue ... the doctor then goes on and does extra tests ... and also to cover for being sued.

Tort reform is BS. most juries have enough common sense to know when some lawsuit is BS ... we only hear about the SPECTACULAR awards ... odd you don't hear the insurance companies complaining when they win.

If a doctor cut off my fucking leg while i was under the knife for removing a tonsil ... who is to say i cant file a lawsuit against that bastard for whatever the hell i can get.

Now ... to help with some of the frivolous stuff ... we could make a law where there is an independent mediation court or something with 3 representatives ...1 chosen by insurance company ... 1 by the person suing ...and 1 by the state .. and if then it is decided to go to jury trial ..so be it... and not years and years later ... a fast lane

If the government wants to get involved ... we need more doctors first ... and in that ... we need more worth while grants and scholarships for all kinds of students to become doctors ... not totally based on grades alone ... but as a whole ... even voted on by peers in ones class (not teachers or government officials).

when the total cost of becoming a doctor becomes more reachable by all classes of people ... there will be more doctors ... with more doctors you can treat more people and increase competition to help drive down the cost of practicing medicine.

who is to say a doctor is worth more than a school teacher? why should being a doctor cost half a million and a teacher less than 100,000?

after there is more doctors ... and during the process of educating more doctors ... insurance can be dealt with by opening the doors to ALL states to get ALL insurance ...to all citizens ... to stop resting the responsibility on employers ... and again ..open the gates to all with all incentives for everyone. Stop overcharging emergency room visits to make up for the shortfalls of ailing ... unneeded departments in hospitals. It shouldn't cost 5 grand for 8 stitches.

lastly ... some things should be rewarded... healthy food should have tax incentives ... bad food should have higher taxes (you really cant make the argument for fatties because there are some people that can eat whatever the fuck they want and stay super thin and trim) ... and then put incentives on exercise ... no smoking ... ect

One fucked up thing Ill admit is my Wife whos diabetic and has Insurance still has to pay over $50.00 a month for her insulin

Quote:

Originally posted by Assman!

One fucked up thing Ill admit is my Wife whos diabetic and has Insurance still has to pay over $50.00 a month for her insulin

Sorry about your wife's diabetes, but.....$50 is a lot of money ?????....and diabetes is largely caused by bad dietary habits ( according to my MD and the AMA ). Wow ! I think you better count your blessings Assman !

This is why I like the insurance plans where the employee's health is monitored, like weight, smoking, excercise etc. etc. Those that continue bad habits are charged for it. Those that choose the right path are charged much less. That is the fairest way to go.

Prevention...what a concept !

What a sensible, practical and non partisan response !

But one small input on the tort reform thingy..there was an article in the WSJ yesterday that mentioned that the vast majority ( I don't recall the percentage, sorry) were settled on the courtroom steps, and 89% ( I remember that one) of all medical malpractice law suits that went to the jury were decided in favor of the doctor.

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

IMHO ..the only way to start bringing down the cost of health insurance ...

most doctors have spent the first 11-15 years of their adult life in school and are often half a million dollars or more in debt. They have every right to charge for what they do.

the problem ... how often do you hear of insurance companies losing money as a whole? they charge doctors on both sides ... dictate what the doctor can charge ...and charge the doctor for malpractice at the same time. To make up for the loss in revenue ... the doctor then goes on and does extra tests ... and also to cover for being sued.

Tort reform is BS. most juries have enough common sense to know when some lawsuit is BS ... we only hear about the SPECTACULAR awards ... odd you don't hear the insurance companies complaining when they win.

If a doctor cut off my fucking leg while i was under the knife for removing a tonsil ... who is to say i cant file a lawsuit against that bastard for whatever the hell i can get.

Now ... to help with some of the frivolous stuff ... we could make a law where there is an independent mediation court or something with 3 representatives ...1 chosen by insurance company ... 1 by the person suing ...and 1 by the state .. and if then it is decided to go to jury trial ..so be it... and not years and years later ... a fast lane

If the government wants to get involved ... we need more doctors first ... and in that ... we need more worth while grants and scholarships for all kinds of students to become doctors ... not totally based on grades alone ... but as a whole ... even voted on by peers in ones class (not teachers or government officials).

when the total cost of becoming a doctor becomes more reachable by all classes of people ... there will be more doctors ... with more doctors you can treat more people and increase competition to help drive down the cost of practicing medicine.

who is to say a doctor is worth more than a school teacher? why should being a doctor cost half a million and a teacher less than 100,000?

after there is more doctors ... and during the process of educating more doctors ... insurance can be dealt with by opening the doors to ALL states to get ALL insurance ...to all citizens ... to stop resting the responsibility on employers ... and again ..open the gates to all with all incentives for everyone. Stop overcharging emergency room visits to make up for the shortfalls of ailing ... unneeded departments in hospitals. It shouldn't cost 5 grand for 8 stitches.

lastly ... some things should be rewarded... healthy food should have tax incentives ... bad food should have higher taxes (you really cant make the argument for fatties because there are some people that can eat whatever the fuck they want and stay super thin and trim) ... and then put incentives on exercise ... no smoking ... ect

waste is not an issue to either party. check the article in today's WSJ on the health system in Pennsylvania. IT IS THE ONLY STATE THAT MEASURES DOCTOR AND HOSPITAL PERFORMANCE !

do you think either party is really interested in preventing waste and if you do, then please point me to the party's plan to begin a score card.

Quote:

Originally posted by gsuffa

Canada?
How many illegal Mexican immigrants do you cover?
There's your difference.

Any way the current reform plans are a thinly veiled power grab.
Waste is not addressed and nothing takes effect until 2013 when the current president is reelected

Quote:

Originally posted by 888SPO

...

Sorry about your wife's diabetes, but.....$50 is a lot of money ?????....and diabetes is largely caused by bad dietary habits ( according to my MD and the AMA ). Wow ! I think you better count your blessings Assman !

This is why I like the insurance plans where the employee's health is monitored, like weight, smoking, excercise etc. etc. Those that continue bad habits are charged for it. Those that choose the right path are charged much less. That is the fairest way to go.

Prevention...what a concept !

Im glad you know so much! She has juvenile onset has had it since she was 4 years old!!!!! She is very healthy other than the disease she was born with and far from over weight! Edit she was 3. Alot can be prevented but dont throw everyone into one group do some homework before you start assuming shit that you obviously have no knowledge of!

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

most doctors have spent the first 11-15 years of their adult life in school and are often half a million dollars or more in debt. They have every right to charge for what they do.

That's a very high estimate, typically it's closer to a quarter-million, but, that's neither here nor there.

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

the problem ... how often do you hear of insurance companies losing money as a whole? they charge doctors on both sides ... dictate what the doctor can charge ...and charge the doctor for malpractice at the same time. To make up for the loss in revenue ... the doctor then goes on and does extra tests ... and also to cover for being sued.

Doctors perform "extra tests" for a number of reasons, including to satisfy patient requests, for defensive measures - as you mentioned, but there is almost no evidence that I'm aware of that points to physicians, as a whole, ordering extra tests to make more money.

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

Tort reform is BS. most juries have enough common sense to know when some lawsuit is BS ... we only hear about the SPECTACULAR awards ... odd you don't hear the insurance companies complaining when they win.

The insurance companies win either way, because they just raise malpractice rates in the event they lose, so the money doesn't come out of their pockets. Tort reform could help - to some degree, but it's not going to materially address the cost containment problem.

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

If a doctor cut off my fucking leg while i was under the knife for removing a tonsil ... who is to say i cant file a lawsuit against that bastard for whatever the hell i can get.

You do have every right to sue. And you're entitled to damages for loss of income, time, etc. Punitive damages, however, are the problem - specifically the capricious way in which they're applied. You could cut in half, or double, every jury award for punitive damages, and it would be just as "viable." For something so subjective, there can be no real standard set, and without such a standard, the award becomes arbitrary and without merit.

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

Now ... to help with some of the frivolous stuff ... we could make a law where there is an independent mediation court or something with 3 representatives ...1 chosen by insurance company ... 1 by the person suing ...and 1 by the state .. and if then it is decided to go to jury trial ..so be it... and not years and years later ... a fast lane

There is already a bit of this in practice. Currently most malpractice lawsuits require a physician in the appropriate specialty to sign off on the plaintiff's case stipulating that there was some malfeasance in the conduct of the physician being sued. Of course, if the case has any merit at all, this is somewhat of a formality, but it's there nonetheless.

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

If the government wants to get involved ... we need more doctors first ... and in that ... we need more worth while grants and scholarships for all kinds of students to become doctors ... not totally based on grades alone ... but as a whole ... even voted on by peers in ones class (not teachers or government officials).

Um, no. First, the government ought not get involved - it's not their job. And we don't necessarily need significantly more doctors, but we need more general practice doctors who aren't in specific specialties. The current reimbursement structure provides incentive for graduating physicians to enter specialties, if only out of the need to pay off the aforementioned loans - and that's wrong. Of course, this is a problem caused by the payment structures of Medicare/Medicaid and the insurance industry.

Finally, and probably what I find most appalling about your entire post, is the whole notion of allowing "peers in ones class" to give grades and generally allow for less educated/qualified people to become physicians. Further, in the third and fourth years of medical school students aren't graded on their classroom skills alone, but their clinical rotations, patient interactions, etc are all taken into account.

Hoping for more doctors is one thing, but lowering the standards is another thing entirely, and will ultimately serve to only decrease the level of care patients are receiving. Some jobs require a level of knowledge and skill that not everyone possesses. The position you're taking is akin to saying the NBA should let in more people of shorter stature, just because it's more fair to short people.

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

when the total cost of becoming a doctor becomes more reachable by all classes of people ... there will be more doctors ... with more doctors you can treat more people and increase competition to help drive down the cost of practicing medicine.

You do know that all classes of people do become doctors, right? I mean, the profession isn't limited to all rich white men, you know?

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

who is to say a doctor is worth more than a school teacher? why should being a doctor cost half a million and a teacher less than 100,000?

Supply and demand, coupled with the required levels of education and training says so. As of 2000 there were an estimated 730,000 physicians in the US. There are millions of teachers.

Being a doctor requires 4 more years of school, an high level of technical expertise, not to mention another 3-5 years of residency

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

after there is more doctors ... and during the process of educating more doctors ... insurance can be dealt with by opening the doors to ALL states to get ALL insurance ...to all citizens ... to stop resting the responsibility on employers ... and again ..open the gates to all with all incentives for everyone.

Well, this is actually reasonable. The insurance oligopoly/monopoly in the US, led by employer-based insurance, is perhaps the single most responsible component leading to exorbitant costs and price increases in healthcare.

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

Stop overcharging emergency room visits to make up for the shortfalls of ailing ... unneeded departments in hospitals. It shouldn't cost 5 grand for 8 stitches.

First, it almost never costs 5 grand for 8 stitches. Typically it'll cost a few hundred, and that's for use of the room, the time of the physician, the costs associated with the paperwork generated by your visit, the supplies used in stitching it up, etc.

Second, emergency room visits are entirely overused in the US, which raises costs for everyone as resources are stretched across more patients - many of which would never think of coming into the ER (for colds, general aches, the flu, toothaches, etc) were it not for the blanket coverage provided by the insurance industry. As a nice ancillary benefit, the insurance company then reimburses the physician/hospital at something like 30% of the billed price.

Third, hospitals very rarely have "unneeded departments," as they're not in business to lose money. Of course, there are some "loss leader" departments that generally break even or less, that exist solely because they're needed and generate a lot of traffic/goodwill/community recognition/etc. For example, maternity wards are generally unprofitable, but I would venture to guess that you'd rather that some of them remain open for obvious reasons.

Quote:

Originally posted by choochoo7777

lastly ... some things should be rewarded... healthy food should have tax incentives ... bad food should have higher taxes (you really cant make the argument for fatties because there are some people that can eat whatever the fuck they want and stay super thin and trim) ... and then put incentives on exercise ... no smoking ... ect

Some insurance plans already do this.

But, you know what would reward people even more? If you let them pay out of pocket for every little fee and only used insurance for catastrophic events. This way everyone is responsible for their own behavior, and pays attention to the money they waste, the services they overuse, etc, because they are then responsible for paying for it.

This is the reason that the costs of cosmetic surgery have not risen with the speed or intensity of most other specialties, because when people are paying out of pocket - instead of through some third party who has little effect on them - they take things like price, need and physician quality into consideration much more than they would otherwise. This is simple supply and demand, and it works when not distorted by some gargantuan cover-all program, such as Medicare or an employer-based blanket insurance company.

Quote:

Originally posted by efilnikufesin

the health care system is great it just needs to be a bit more affordable as the profession could take a pay cut to help those in need and it would not kill them i often wonder if they have taken an oath to medicine of capitolism

I think you'd be surprised to know that due to falling reimbursement rates physicians recently have been taking pay cuts. It gets even more severe when one takes malpractice premiums, which must be paid in order to practice, into account.

And just as a curiosity, would you do your job if you weren't paid for it?

All due respect. We all know this is about U.S. healthcare why do so many people that are not in the U.S. feel the need to give their 2 cents?

Quote:

Originally posted by Assman!

All due respect. We all know this is about U.S. healthcare why do so many people that are not in the U.S. feel the need to give their 2 cents?

Well, either it's because they have opinions on the subject they want to share, or they want to make comparisons to their own health care systems. Then we can all learn together how it all works in different countries, without having to google shit, which is always boring.

Or maybe they just like making fun of Americas health care system. It would be kinda petty, but since they're not hurting anything, or breaking any rules..what does it matter to you?

Quote:

Originally posted by Honda_X

...

Well, either it's because they have opinions on the subject they want to share, or they want to make comparisons to their own health care systems. Then we can all learn together how it all works in different countries, without having to google shit, which is always boring.

Or maybe they just like making fun of Americas health care system. It would be kinda petty, but since they're not hurting anything, or breaking any rules..what does it matter to you?

I just find it amusing that you guys have nothing better to do than worry about whats going on in my Country! I know this place is the best and you all look up to the GREAT LEADER! One day your homeplace will be as great. OK we know thats not gonna happen!! But keep hope alive!

Quote:

Originally posted by Assman!

...I just find it amusing that you guys have nothing better to do than worry about whats going on in my Country! I know this place is the best and you all look up to the GREAT LEADER! One day your homeplace will be as great. OK we know thats not gonna happen!! But keep hope alive!

I used to watch The Simpsons when I was younger. It kinda sucks now, but at the time it was pretty good comedy. I remember there was an episode where Lisa was afraid she had the "Simpson gene" which was causing her to lose her intelligence. The whole episode was about how she was afraid of becoming a retard, and the rest of the family trying to convince her it was made up, and there was no Simpson gene. Homer had this plot right, where he brought in a bunch of distant relatives to prove to Lisa they were smart, shockingly, at first Homers plan began to backfire, and most of the distant relatives were just as slow as Homer himself. Don't worry, it turned out the that the gene was only spread through the male side of the family, so Lisa was safe, and had just been having a bad day. The reason I brought this up, was about halfway through the episode, Ralph Wiggum was playing with a mailbox, raising and then dropping the flag on it. While the flag was in the up position, Ralph laughed, and giggled and was having a great time, but then when he dropped it, Ralphie was sad, he cried and felt bad until he raised it again, he did this over and over. Lisa watched Ralph out her window, since she was worried at the time that she might end up playing with mailboxes in the near future, then she said "Meh, Ralph looks like he's having a fun time"...that might not be an exact quote, I haven't seen the episode in awhile, but it's pretty close to that. I guess what I'm trying to say is, did you forget to raise your flag today, champ?

Quote:

Originally posted by Honda_X

...

I used to watch The Simpsons when I was younger. It kinda sucks now, but at the time it was pretty good comedy. I remember there was an episode where Lisa was afraid she had the "Simpson gene" which was causing her to lose her intelligence. The whole episode was about how she was afraid of becoming a retard, and the rest of the family trying to convince her it was made up, and there was no Simpson gene. Homer had this plot right, where he brought in a bunch of distant relatives to prove to Lisa they were smart, shockingly, at first Homers plan began to backfire, and most of the distant relatives were just as slow as Homer himself. Don't worry, it turned out the that the gene was only spread through the male side of the family, so Lisa was safe, and had just been having a bad day. The reason I brought this up, was about halfway through the episode, Ralph Wiggum was playing with a mailbox, raising and then dropping the flag on it. While the flag was in the up position, Ralph laughed, and giggled and was having a great time, but then when he dropped it, Ralphie was sad, he cried and felt bad until he raised it again, he did this over and over. Lisa watched Ralph out her window, since she was worried at the time that she might end up playing with mailboxes in the near future, then she said "Meh, Ralph looks like he's having a fun time"...that might not be an exact quote, I haven't seen the episode in awhile, but it's pretty close to that. I guess what I'm trying to say is, did you forget to raise your flag today, champ?

that was the saddest comeback Ive ever heard! I bet you have that episode of the Simpsons on VHS! and you play your Atari when your snowed in! NO sorry man you have a PC and graduated to a porn site crew member