How Bad Is American Health Care...Really?

Thank you. Now that this is settled, lets go back to the porn.

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

and Brownell, I do know all that stuff. I work for the government. And I still say American-Shemrican. When it comes down to it, I think you always do what is morally correct.

Really?

Then how do you explain your total apparent disdain for the 3.5+ billion people on earth who would look at the US healthcare system PRE HR-3200 and deem it worthy of kings? And I hope you don't own anything from China or the Indonesia, since, for the most part, the only healthcare benefits those workers are given is the opportunity to be dumped in the river if they become sick and unable to work for their corporate/government masters. You wouldn't want to be supporting such morally outrageous regimes, of course!

Surely the estimated trillion+ dollars being spent on this bill could be better used to improve the standards of living of hundreds of millions of people around the world living in third-world countries to a significantly larger degree than it will improve the standard of living of the ~35 million US citizens that currently - either by choice or other - don't have health insurance (yet were still treated by hospitals and physicians in the event of life-threatening injuries)

And if it's what is "morally" right, how do you justify theft from one group in order to give to another? Innate in the concept of "liberty" is the freedom from theft and subjugation.


Stick with your original assertion, where you make the case that you feel safer about the future of your family because of this; it's more truthful, while any argument based upon "morality" is horribly flawed.



Oh, btw, we can't afford this either, but that's ok, it's never stopped congress before. In fact, that's the silver lining I take out of this, as it' brings the destruction of the whole goddamn system one step closer.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

Oh, btw, we can't afford this either, but that's ok, it's never stopped congress before. In fact, that's the silver lining I take out of this, as it' brings the destruction of the whole goddamn system one step closer.

CHEER!

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

The parts that kick in immediately? Like the discount drugs for the elderly and the ability to keep our kids on our insurance until they are 26?

Horrible, ghastly changes to our current system those are.

Sweep out the fuckers all you want, but even if you do sweep them all out (which remains to be seen. Party in power always loses some seats at the midterm) you still have Obama in office to veto any act that would repeal it. Not enough seats available in November to give the 3/4s to override a veto and by the time the 2013 or so rolls around folks will see that this wasn't so bad. I would be surprised if it went anywhere.

You realize the discounted drugs are only necessary because of the monopolies that Congress has granted the drug companies, right? For example, I can sell a pair of shoes to some poor barefoot guy in Djibouti, or Nicaragua, or wherever the hell I want. I own them, so I can sell them.

I cannot, however, sell my excess pain meds, or my excess birth control pills to the same dude if he's in pain or worried about getting knocked up; I get to go to jail for that. I can't imagine how that might influence prices, can you? Medicare, medicaid, anti-trust exemptions, etc, all skew the actual price of medical care, and thus the exponential cost inflation of the healthcare industry is a result of government intervention. So, obviously, more government intervention is necessary, no?

BTW, this does nothing to curb the costs, which were and remain unsustainable. To be sure, adding 35 million customers to any industry without a commensurate increase in providers is going to move costs, but I'll let you figure out which way they're going to go.

And that's not even taking into account the little carrots thrown into the bill, like the extension of biotech patents from 5.5 years to 12 years. Gee, I guess things like that should really bend the cost curve down too, right?

This is a joke piece of legislation, which serves the main goal of increasing government revenue and at the same time placating the blathering masses who think that this is going to 'fix' the healthcare system, yet know nothing about the bill, healthcare, the perverse incentives in the medical industry, and economics in general.

I too am quite interested in hearing the moral argument why revenue collected from upper and middle class Americans should be used to assist underprivileged Americans, instead of being used to assist the poorest people around the world that are in immanent danger of dying from starvation.

If you guys want to tackle global poverty, I'm in and I'm in favor. I give a portion of my salary every two weeks to that cause.

Dehydration before starvation actually. Lack of water will kill you long before a lack of food will. I'm organizing a fundraiser in May to raise money for water charities in Africa.

Be happy to post a link if you guys are interested in supporting.

I have a feeling not though.

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

If you guys want to tackle global poverty, I'm in and I'm in favor. I give a portion of my salary every two weeks to that cause.

Bully for you, but you're deflecting.

That wasn't the question.

To be clear:

Would every dollar allocated in HR-3200 be more efficiently spent (meaning, have higher marginal utility) by massively upgrading the standards of living of hundreds of millions of people around the world currently living in poverty instead of guaranteeing that everyone in the US has health insurance; yes or no?

EL

No. Spending the money to increase the standard of living of people around the world will not work unless you educate them so they can become self sustaining and have a government that protects individual and private property rights so that they can keep what they have earned and increased in value.

No. Guaranteeing health care for everybody will not work either as you must have somebody dictate how much care any given person will receive and also dictate who will provide that care. Along the way there will be an imbalance of availbility of resources due to numerous factors that will affect decisions made by imperfect people trying to attain the nirvana of a perfect choice. Ain't gonna happen.

Once a decision is placed outside of one's own responsibility then it will never be the right choice and more pressure will be brought to bear on the system to live up to a unsustainable level and other needs will go unmet. Can't wait for people to scream for their armload of drugs while complaining about the potholes that can't be fixed because we can't collect enough tax to pay for both.

DorkButt and some others have yet to understand that their exchanging of freedom for laziness will eventually affect their lives. If you ever need a lesson in government control of everything find a former slave to the USSR. They will tell you horror stories that will curl hairs you never knew you had. Better yet, ask them about their first trip to an American grocery store. Free market at its finest.

So when a doctor is told what they can or cannot do for your health by an unknown entity miles away who will never examine your sorry hide and you don't like it then just remember how happy your were when you had to pay for it and be responsible for your own ass. Would love to see DorkButt's face when he's told that a life saving procedure will not be performed on him because a stipper needs a boob job and she'll live longer than him and go to work to pay high taxes for the next stripper's boob job. Har dee har har!

Quote:

Originally posted by steelnail

So when a doctor is told what they can or cannot do for your health by an unknown entity miles away who will never examine your sorry hide and you don't like it then just remember how happy your were when you had to pay for it and be responsible for your own ass. Would love to see DorkButt's face when he's told that a life saving procedure will not be performed on him because a stipper needs a boob job and she'll live longer than him and go to work to pay high taxes for the next stripper's boob job. Har dee har har!

Is that what's happening in Canada? Poor Honda!

+1 for stripper boobs!!

It's not bad. Caterpillar already farmed out work & laid of workers because the company can't handle the extra expense. Looks like unemployment will go up & funny the bill is set to go into effect in 4 years..... just when the republicans get back into the majority. even latest cnn poll shows that the majority of Americans know Obama sux, but the libs keep him in because he is the first colored president here.

Quote:

Originally posted by HighGuy

...

Is that what's happening in Canada? Poor Honda!

+1 for stripper boobs!!

That literally happens all the time.

I went to the hospital the other day with a broken leg, an they were all "stand there in pain while we blow this elderly mans nose"

That doesn't happen, it's just like any other hospital, they take you by the severity of your condition.

My mom and dad, and grandpa and grandma have had plenty of serious surgeries...there is barely any wait time, and if it's life threatening there is no wait time.

Canada is awesome...maybe lets not knock this new system until it's all working and shit, maybe it wont be so bad?

Quote:

Originally posted by Honda_X

...

That literally happens all the time.

I went to the hospital the other day with a broken leg, an they were all "stand there in pain while we blow this elderly mans nose"

That doesn't happen, it's just like any other hospital, they take you by the severity of your condition.

My mom and dad, and grandpa and grandma have had plenty of serious surgeries...there is barely any wait time, and if it's life threatening there is no wait time.

Canada is awesome...maybe lets not knock this new system until it's all working and shit, maybe it wont be so bad?

I've heard your story many times, yet people in the US love to quote stories about how horrible Canada healthcare is.
I'm no fan of the current healthcare bill, but a few facts have not been mentioned:
US healthcare ranks #38 in the world, not #1, as has been mentioned.
The US already has nationalized healthcare in the form of medicare and the VA.
Administrative costs are 10% of insurance companies in the medicare system.
No other industrialized country has private healthcare like the US.
The US is the only industrialized country that pays more than $4000/yr per capita for healthcare.
I'm in favor of any healthcare system that pays for strippers, or any other women, to get bigger boobs.

Quote:

Originally posted by pdxal

...

I'm in favor of any healthcare system that pays for strippers, or any other women, to get bigger boobs.

Yeah that's really smart. You pay for the boobs and YOU don't get to play with them.

Taxation in general offers no assurance that the person(s) being taxed actually benefits from the revenue collected .... quite the opposite in most cases actually

Quote:

Originally posted by pdxal

The US is the only industrialized country that pays more than $4000/yr per capita for healthcare.

Wrong. The latest numbers I can find show that Switzerland, Norway, and Luxembourg also spend $4000 plus per capita.

And most countries have private health care. Even Canada does now. Mainly because the public system can not handle everyone and everything. The private system handles the overflow, for a price.

some interesting statistics to peruse:

http://www.kff.org/insurance/upload/7692_02.pdf

i have private insurance, but only because i'm basically medically fucked in ways i don't want to go into, and i'm lucky enough to be able to afford it.

i support a public option is because i know several people who have no coverage, and this would benefit them. i know about all the crazy shit that was tacked on after the fact, which i don't really like, but i still remain cautiously optimistic. it IS possible to have such an option without falling into anarchy or fascism. i promise.