How Bad Is American Health Care...Really?

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Originally posted by thorenx

Like it matters, they're going to have us all under one government soon anyway (North American Union) and then we can just hike the tax brackets up to 70% and let the government dictate every single aspect of our lives to us. Woo.

[ Link ]

Maybe we all should wake up & stop putting Idiots in the House & senate

This debate may be a little different if we didn't have people in Congress saying they can't even be bothered to try and read this bill and don;t even understand it when they do read it.

If the American people would pay attention to little tells like that, they would vote all of these dumbasses out of office next election. No one can tell me they want their Congresscritter voting to pass things they haven't read.

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Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

This debate may be a little different if we didn't have people in Congress saying they can't even be bothered to try and read this bill and don;t even understand it when they do read it.

If the American people would pay attention to little tells like that, they would vote all of these dumbasses out of office next election. No one can tell me they want their Congresscritter voting to pass things they haven't read.

It's slowly but surely starting...

Yahoo News

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Screaming constituents, protesters dragged out by the cops, congressmen fearful for their safety — welcome to the new town-hall-style meeting, the once-staid forum that is rapidly turning into a house of horrors for members of Congress.

On the eve of the August recess, members are reporting meetings that have gone terribly awry, marked by angry, sign-carrying mobs and disruptive behavior. In at least one case, a congressman has stopped holding town hall events because the situation has spiraled so far out of control.

“I had felt they would be pointless,” Rep. Tim Bishop (D-N.Y.) told POLITICO, referring to his recent decision to temporarily suspend the events in his Long Island district. “There is no point in meeting with my constituents and [to] listen to them and have them listen to you if what is basically an unruly mob prevents you from having an intelligent conversation.”

Of course, now they have to realize that THEY ACTUALLY WORK FOR THIS 'MOB,' and that their power is derived from the consent of the mob.

But, like I said, at least it's a start. The sheeple are waking up.

I have been telling people for years that we do not and never have lived in a democracy, by design. Democracy is rule by the mob. But they kept selling that democracy crap and ignoring my warning. When the mob is on your side, it is "the will of the people". When it is on the other side, they are an "unruly mob you can't talk to".

Well, judging from my current experience, I like American health insurance... But not everyone in America has as good a plan as I do...

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Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

I have been telling people for years that we do not and never have lived in a democracy, by design. Democracy is rule by the mob. But they kept selling that democracy crap and ignoring my warning. When the mob is on your side, it is "the will of the people". When it is on the other side, they are an "unruly mob you can't talk to".

I so wish more Americans understood this, which is the basis of the structure of the House and Senate. We should all be grateful that neither Jefferson nor Adams got their way entirely, leaving us with the brilliant compromise we have.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

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“I had felt they would be pointless,” Rep. Tim Bishop (D-N.Y.) told POLITICO, referring to his recent decision to temporarily suspend the events in his Long Island district. “There is no point in meeting with my constituents and [to] listen to them and have them listen to you if what is basically an unruly mob prevents you from having an intelligent conversation.”

Of course, now they have to realize that THEY ACTUALLY WORK FOR THIS 'MOB,' and that their power is derived from the consent of the mob.

Exactly - congressmen, in fact, are the Representatives of the "mob", by design - perhaps Rep. Bishop should have taken a peek at the constitution before running for the House.

Senators (who were not supposed to be directly elected by their constituents) are tasked with taking the broader view and could arguably make such a comment appropriately, but a Representative taking that position is on pretty shaky ground.

Not to get too far off subject, bu I agree with Zell Miller that the 17th Amendment was one of the worst things that ever happened to the US. People do not realize that Senators are supposed to represent the state itself, not the people within the state. That is part of the balance of powers that was created with the Constitution. It seems like a subtle difference, but in reality it is like having union negotiations where the company is represented by people selected by the union. Think about it that way and you quickly realize why it is a bad idea.

Hmmm, I just watched a news story about Canadians that are being shuttled to the US because of excessive waitlines. The story cited a woman who was diagnosed with Cancer and given only two weeks to live being put on a waiting list because in Canada, anything that's not immediately dangerous to life and limb is considered an "elective procedure".
[quote]While recognizing that many Canadians believe that we have one of the best health care systems in the world, the founders of Timely Medical Alternatives Inc. also recognize that there are some 875,000 Canadians currently on the waiting list for referrals to specialists or for medical procedures.

Our organization was formed in 2003 to help Canadians from coast to coast, to "Leave the queue" and take personal responsibility for their own private medical services.. Since then we have helped hundreds of Canadians obtain second medical opinions, MRI's / CT scans / PET scans (within days) and surgery (within weeks). We have helped our clients to regain their mobility, to get relief from chronic pain, to get diagnoses of illnesses and we have, in some cases, helped to save the lives of a number of our fellow Canadians.

Are you one of the 875,000 Canadians on a waiting list for medical care? Are you aware that private health care is thriving in Canada?

Here are some comparisons which will help you decide on whether you should continue to wait (and wait and wait) for medical care within the “system” or, alternatively, leave the queue and wait for private medical care:


Source: http://www.timelymedical.ca/

Well, that's cool, because if I need a quadruple bypass, I guess I can hold off for 12 months or so.

If it wasn't for the American Health care system I wouldn't be here now.

Health care is great, you can get whatever you want, whenever you want. As long as you have the insurance to cover it, and the money to pay for it.

Also it depends, on what kind of insurance you have, the more money you have then better insurance you can get, but that's only if you never get sick, don't smoke, don't have any allergies, don't have any incurable disease, (anything from asthma, to HIV)

Of course, it all really depends on if your insurance carrier feels like covering everything, you might pay for.

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Originally posted by brownell

Reagan suggested that we should privatize defense, intelligence, the treasure, and nuclear regulation? I did not know that

Me neither and I kinda doubt he did

First off let me apologize if I ramble.

Our healthcare system is only as bad as each person feels it is. For the family who has no coverage not by choice then the system is broke. They must wait in crowded waiting rooms with all the other medicaid/welfare families. (This is something that they do not like and are not used to). The weel to do family that has a six-figure income despises the system because "They have been paying for all those welfare folks who won't work for a living" Congress will not give up the top notch care they recieve because they feel the have earned it, through their position. The vets (yes I'm one) do not like their system and feel they deserve more for what they have given this country, their blood. The average working class schmo and family doesn't have time to debate any of this they are too busy with their lives and all the little "things" they do and want to acquire.

So to sum it up the problem with the healthcare system is; the American people who are "class motivated" and not willing to give back once they have something they feel they are entitled to. This country was founded on a principle of equality of all persons. That my friends has been forgotten. Have we forgotten the lessons of the 1920's and 1930's during the great depresson in the US. How about the fall of Russia and it's ecomony when people had NOTHING and still found ways to survive. They put personal pride aside and did what needed to be done. The Canadian, Australian, and British systems work the way they do because they do. The Japanese system has worked for a very long time. Their life sytle and dedication to physical and mental fitness works there. It would not work in the US. Those few AAmerican citizens who are willing to share; find that there are those who are lazy and greedy and want others to do for them while they do little to nothing. A wise politicican said "it is the duty of every american citizen to challenge their government and it's decisions, A government that is to large to realize that they answer to the citizens is no longer a government but a dictatorship".
That in my opinion is the problem with the healthcare system in america. The PEOPLE who run the system, and oversee the system not the system itself. If the system was fair and equal for all someone would still complain.




Face it we are not a happy people unless we complain and whine about something.

This is way too long, but it's a big topic.

First some background. My wife and I both work, and we have excellent health care. Between our two companies we don’t have to spend a dime on health care, and we get pretty much whatever we want. I’ve had surgeries, monthly medications, and dental visits at no charge. So has my wife, and our kids are covered as well. I pay about 26% of my income in taxes and my insurance is a company benefit.

So how much would my insurance cost if I were paying it myself? I looked up the COBRA rates for my plan and to cover me, my wife and kids I’d have to pay out $1,500 A MONTH. That’s not a typo, I didn’t forget a decimal point, and it’s an accurate number. One-thousand five-hundred US dollars a month for my insurance. This amounts to about 35% of my gross salary.

To quote Gerrit Graham from Used Cars “That's too fucking high.”

J-Swiss, that cut you had on your hand that the nurse suggested super glue for and cost you about $5,000? If that had happened to me I wouldn’t have thought twice about going to the doctor. Shit, for a cut like that they would have lavished me with care, maybe even a topless nurse (OK, that’s hyperbole), and I’d be fully covered.

When I had my last (back) surgery the doctor said that I could go to hospital A or hospital B. I said, well “A” is closer so I’ll go there. He gently suggested that I might prefer “B” and damn if he wasn’t right. Private room, TV, phone, place for my wife to sleep, good food, it was like being on holiday.

So, “How Bad Is American Health Care… Really?” It fucking sucks. And to J-Swiss and all the other people on this thread who don’t go to the doctor no matter how bad they are, I am truly saddened by the disparity between our lives. One of my kids recently had an accident which is going to require surgery to fix, and believe me, if I could not get her that surgery I would feel absolutely horrible.

Ektnclr said that the only problem with the health care system in the US is the PEOPLE who run the system, and oversee the system not the system itself. I agree and want to go on to say that a lot of the health care question can be boiled down to if you accept capitalism as the basis for health care. Personally, I reject capitalism as the solution to health care.

Yes, the problem is that the people who run it are working in the confines of capitalism and need to show a profit. Both the insurance companies and the medical profession need to make a profit, which means that they make decisions based on profit. I think that deciding on peoples health on the basis of profit is immoral and fundamentally wrong.

Most individuals with small businesses don’t have the kind of coverage that I do. In fact, they have a lot less negotiating power than my company, so for the same care they’d pay a lot more. Most can’t afford that so they pay smaller amounts for less coverage and end up having high deductibles and co-pays, with smaller caps. And these small businesses, the ones that are complaining that they don’t want their taxes to go up, and that taxes will kill their business, are getting increases of 16% on their health care premiums.

A lot of people don’t have any insurance because they can’t afford it. And the ironic thing is that it would cost less to give these people proper medical care and medication than to let them go so far that there is no hope for them. For example this article in the Atlanta Metro News http://www.ajc.com/services/content/printedition/2009/04/23/proconed0423.html written by a doctor telling of a woman with a burst blood vessel in her brain who died because she had to choose between blood pressure medicine, and food for her kids. The irony is that the amount the ER cost would have more than paid for her medicine for life.

What has Capitalism gotten us? On the health care side it’s gotten us Pay for Procedure. The more procedures they run on me, the more money they get. So bring on the pregnancy test for a 48 year old man (OK, hyperbole again, but not far off). Sure hospitals can claim that they had to run all these tests on you to make sure you had what they eventually treated you for, but a lot of it is useless. They run the tests so that they can make up for the treatment they give to people who don’t have insurance.

And on the Insurance Company side, capitalism has gotten us rescission, where companies award employees for cancelling policies on people who need expensive treatments. See this article in Bill Moyers Journal http://www.pbs.org/moyers/journal/07102009/profile.html of a woman in need of a mastectomy who’s policy was cancelled because she had not told them that she had previously been treated for acne and a fast beating heart.

And the most ironic thing of all is that people today say that they are happy with their company-provided health care. BUT the traditional employer-employee relationship with benefits is less and less common. We see a larger percentage of our work force in a contractual agreement which provides higher pay but no benefits. For a lot of these people the cost of health care insurance is beyond them. They will not realize just how bad it is until they’re in that position.

My greatest fear, which I think is going to happen, is that the Republicans will take so much out of the bill that whatever is passed will not solve the problem, and then the Republicans will say “See, we told you so”.

They may fix you no matter what but most insurance only pays a portion so if you get any kind of surgery you'll probably be in debt the rest of your life. And that's with good insurance. Only rich people can afford the kind that won't break you. Go figure right, they're the only ones that can actually pay for all of it. But that's our great country. Support the rich and let the rest suffer.

My only personal experience was when I had my nose broken. The ER was completely empty and I sat around for three hours before I finally just walked out. They made me sign some papers saying I wouldn't sue them. Three weeks later, guess what.... That's right I got a bill for $130, I guess for taking up seating in their waiting room or something. Fuckin' assholes.

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Originally posted by DaveWa

What has Capitalism gotten us? On the health care side it’s gotten us Pay for Procedure. The more procedures they run on me, the more money they get. So bring on the pregnancy test for a 48 year old man (OK, hyperbole again, but not far off). Sure hospitals can claim that they had to run all these tests on you to make sure you had what they eventually treated you for, but a lot of it is useless. They run the tests so that they can make up for the treatment they give to people who don’t have insurance.

And on the Insurance Company side, capitalism has gotten us rescission, where companies award employees for cancelling policies on people who need expensive treatments. See this article in Bill Moyers Journal[ Link ] of a woman in need of a mastectomy who’s policy was cancelled because she had not told them that she had previously been treated for acne and a fast beating heart.

You're basing your conclusions about the current system on a hugely erroneous assumption; namely, that the Heathcare/insurance industries in the United States are anything resembling a capitalist free market system.

Protip: They're not.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

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You're basing your conclusions about the current system on a hugely erroneous assumption; namely, that the Heathcare/insurance industries in the United States are anything resembling a capitalist free market system.

Protip: They're not.

You know what? You're right, they don't resemble a capitalistic free market system at all. They may have at one time, but for whatever reason that has fallen apart. Purely a guess, but in a system where the end user doesn't see much of the cost, and where the provider is paid based on the services they provide regardless of if they are needed or not, there is a circle which just feeds itself.

There are private health insurance systems in the world that do function well. A friend told me that the system in the Netherlands uses private insurance companies which are heavily regulated. Can anyone expand on this for me?

I've been watching these town hall meetings where people are up in arms and shouting at their representatives. I'd like to ask these people one question. During the recent layoffs, were you worried about your loosing job?

american healthcare is in sad shape, but i don't think obama has the answer---when a country is bankrupt, like his plan would do, it will not be able to take of any of it's citizens

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Originally posted by fredg222

american healthcare is in sad shape, but i don't think obama has the answer---when a country is bankrupt, like his plan would do, it will not be able to take of any of it's citizens

The current health care system is bankrupting America. It's bankrupting small business owners and families.

In order to bring it under control it needs a huge amount of regulation or a way for people to buy insurance through the government, which is what the public option is.