How Bad Is American Health Care...Really?

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Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

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Many people, or their employers, will make that same decision. That is what is being counted on to ensure that the crap they are passing now stays forever. One guy even mentioned they either have to pass a bad bill now or they never will get one passed at all. That sounds like a power grab more than anything to help the people.

CBO estimates put this number at 8,000,000. Likely higher, IMO, since the CBO projections wrt. the economy in general over the initial 10 year projections (lol @ economic predictions on a 10 year timeline) are too rosy.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

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CBO estimates put this number at 8,000,000. Likely higher, IMO, since the CBO projections wrt. the economy in general over the initial 10 year projections (lol @ economic predictions on a 10 year timeline) are too rosy.

That is a given. The CBO themselves points out that they can not include the "Medicare fix" in their estimates since it is not in this law, even though everyone knows that it will continue to be passed as a separate law every time it is needed. If you take the "Medicare fix" into account, even the CBO estimates would show this thing costing trillions.

This "Health-care" is all about power--power to control people to buy insurance, power to dictate peoples' health-care, power to let the IRS investigate anything they want to without impunity(1000x more power than prior to this bill.)

I have friends in England, Canada and Poland. Most of them have stated to me that the US is the standard for good, quality, medical care(albeit with rocketing costs.....)--prior to this bill being passed last evening.

This bill also violates the 10th Amendment of The US Constitution. This will be tried in the Courts. Hopefully, this bill really doesn't have a "No-Rescind" Clause in it.

Yeah, repealing this thing is going to be tough. I wish I could read the thing, but there's no way a reasonably inteligent person can read and understand the 2000+ pages of circular and externally referenced mumbo-jumbo within. Hopefully, the parts that kick in right away won't screw things up too much until we can sweep those fuckers out in November.

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Originally posted by rikko

I have friends in England, Canada and Poland. Most of them have stated to me that the US is the standard for good, quality, medical care(albeit with rocketing costs.....)--prior to this bill being passed last evening.

I have friends living in this country from oversees, particularly a couple from New Zealand working for the World Bank who say there is no difference in the care they get here or at home. They were surprised they had to buy health insurance and think our system is a joke.

I know the haters are out today, but I fully support the President. What was done was moral and good. I don't give a shit what it costs (wanna save money? quit cutting rich guys taxes and quit going to war in foreign countries). It was the right thing to do.

The parts that kick in immediately? Like the discount drugs for the elderly and the ability to keep our kids on our insurance until they are 26?

Horrible, ghastly changes to our current system those are.

Sweep out the fuckers all you want, but even if you do sweep them all out (which remains to be seen. Party in power always loses some seats at the midterm) you still have Obama in office to veto any act that would repeal it. Not enough seats available in November to give the 3/4s to override a veto and by the time the 2013 or so rolls around folks will see that this wasn't so bad. I would be surprised if it went anywhere.

Anyways, you guys get back to your group therapy session. It is what it is.

I don't have a problem with "discount drugs" for the elderly or anyone else for that matter. Clearly everyone recognizes that drug prices are unnecessarily high. Nor do I necessarily have a problem with extending the age that parents have the "ability" to keep family plans longer, although I do think that 26-27 yo's should generally be standing on their own by then. Group plans are great IMO, as far as I'm concerned, if a family wants to purchase a family plan that covers everyone from Grandma and Grandpa all the way down to the great-grandchildren, LET THEM. but let THEM choose if that's what THEY want to do. And if the family doesn't want a group plan, let each individual decided for themselves what level of insurance they want.

You seem to be one of the MINORITY of Americans that think it's the Government's role to make individual healthcare choices for it's citizens, but you ARE in the minority, and it's a distinctly Un-American sentiment.

I have health insurance thru the company I work for, but I hate doctors And will never use it. Fuck health care and Fuck the doctors! I'd rather die then be forced to see a doctor!

Well, to be fair, I haven't seen any evidence that President Obama and the rest of the Liberals care whether you take advantage of the healthcare you're forced to pay for,..... as long as they can still make you pay for it.

But just wait, they're already talking about mandates on preventative healthcare .... I hope you like bran.

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Originally posted by brownell

....and it's a distinctly Un-American sentiment.

American shamerican.

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

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American shamerican.

Yeah, that's not an unexpected response considering your previous statements, at least you're honest. Although it would be nice if those of you who don't appreciate American ideals would go somewhere else that already suites your preferences better rather than trying to deny the dream of life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness to the rest of us that appreciate the Declaration of Independence and the US Constitution.

Just remember in a few years that you asked for this. You asked them if you could put the chains on in exchange for them giving you medical care. You can sit at your masters feet begging for his table scraps now but I refuse to. This was never about doing something for you. It was about doing something to you. They now control you cradle to grave. And you put the chains on willingly.

The only good thing is that we are one step closer to the tyranny part of the cycle and that means one step closer to the cycle getting back to freedom. I just hope I live to see it.

I have only one question for those that support the Bill just passed by the pres & his minions. If this Bill is so good for America, why did the majority party need to resort to dirty politcs and trickery to get it passed?

Hell, they didn't even get a unanimous vote from their own party!

You want an equal result for all, not a fair opportunity. There is a huge difference. And you blame the health care system for something the government did to you by denying you the ability to buy coverage as you see fit and tying your coverage to your job. The government did that to you, not the health care system. But you are too wrapped up in the lies of your side to look at facts and see that the government caused the damn problem int he first place and more government is not going to fix it.

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

Brownell, really, reducing the suffering of your fellow Americans is ultimately denying you the dream of life and liberty an the pursuit of happiness?

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We hold these Truths to be self-evident, that all Men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life and the abiltity to force all others to assume responsibility for your personal hardships

WHAT!?! , that's not really what it says?

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

Don't get high and mighty with me. You don't work any harder than I do.

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT but seriously, that's a pretty risky place to go after having just described yourself as a white-collar Govnt employee.

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

You don't pay any more into the system than I do.

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

Your degree isn't any bigger than mine is.

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

And you don't know one shits worth of anything more about America than I do.

YOU DON'T KNOW THAT

But what I DO KNOW, is that I have far more respect for the intent of the Founding Fathers to protect the rights of the individuals than you do, and no respectable American would ever say:

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

"American shamerican.

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

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I have friends living in this country from oversees, particularly a couple from New Zealand working for the World Bank who say there is no difference in the care they get here or at home. They were surprised they had to buy health insurance and think our system is a joke.

I know the haters are out today ...

So your New Zealand friends didn't know that they pay for it through taxes in their own country? And did they have any serious medical issues while they were here to even be able to judge the two systems?

And yeah, yeah ... we all know you love to call people haters or racists every time that you post in the panel

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

The parts that kick in immediately? Like the discount drugs for the elderly and the ability to keep our kids on our insurance until they are 26?

You said the words kids and age 26 in the same sentence ...

When I was in college, and my parents were unable to claim me (I think it was when I turned 22), I actually had to buy my own policy. We can't ask that of our young adults anymore? And by the way ... what happened to 4 years of college? ... up to age 26 is covering 8 years.

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

Because our health care system does that to your fellow hardworking Americans every day. Take an individual whose kid was born prematurely and has respiratory problems. That guy can't leave his company to work for a better one -- where he'd be more satisfied or paid more money -- because a new insurance plan wouldn't bother to cover his kids doctor's visits or his expensive medicine.

Why couldn't we just do away with the healthcare through employer system? Most Americans would have supported that, and it would take care of your hypothetical situation.

(sorry, i don't know how to do more than one quote per post)

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Originally posted by hornithologist

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Why couldn't we just do away with the healthcare through employer system? Most Americans would have supported that, and it would take care of your hypothetical situation.

(sorry, i don't know how to do more than one quote per post)

Agree completely. Why involve the employers at all? Look at the German system, you racist :-)

As for my New Zealand friends, the wife had a baby here. Came for three years and brought home an American. They know it came through their taxes. This was the first time though that they had to buy separate insurance. They weren't displeased with the care. They just didn't think it was better. They thought a doctors visit was a doctors visit.

and Brownell, I do know all that stuff. I work for the government. And I still say American-Shemrican. When it comes down to it, I think you always do what is morally correct.

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

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When it comes down to it, I think you always do what is morally correct.

Sweet, not everyone would choose to live in poverty themselves in order to donate almost all of their income to help the impoverished. Kudos to you for having the courage to do what's "morally correct"