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How Bad Is American Health Care...Really?

Starter: Honda_X Posted: 16 years ago Views: 13.3K
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#4161127
Lvl 16
Quote:
Originally posted by J-Swiss

Health needs to be viewed less as a product to make a fortune off of and more like food, something that everyone needs and deserves. Until people stop looking at health as a product and a commodity than nothing will ever change. Do people get rich off of selling some food? yes. But there's also a massive effort to make sure that everyone gets some food in some way because people recognize it as a necessity not a luxury. Health is no luxury, life is not a bargaining chip for billionaires to play with and to hold back or give as they see fit.


Are you saying we should have the government take more taxes and provide us our food also? Or are you saying that since we already have Medicare and Medicaid as well as other plans for those who are low income that are similar to the food stamps and welfare that provide minimum levels of food to people that we are already OK? I am a little confused.
#4161128
Lvl 20
Sorry I deleted my post before you quoted it. This topic just pisses me off way too much and it hits way too close to home.

All I'll say is if you think medicare or medicaid do anything to help anyone except the most dirt poor or old people around and that they don't leave millions of families completely fucked without coverage than you live in fairy tale land.

It's too early for me to be this pissed off already so I won't be checkin back on this thread. Just talking about how pathetic healthcare is in this country and thinking of all the people here getting fucked breaks my heart and puts me in a violent rage.
#4161129
Lvl 11
@ Lindros
Healthcare is not a product with known and expected results and risks like gasoline. Third party payer is necessary for Health insurance because someone has to assume the unknown portion of trying to "fix" a human organism. The price of everything health related is artificially inflated because there are no caps on lawsuits, so medical related insurance has to prepare them selves for Judges and juries that award exorbitant "repair" and "replacement" settlements.

@ RTFW
I agree, except that I think lack of tort reform to cap lawsuits is the biggest reason for expensive health insurance, followed by corporate taxes which are already too high, and are guaranteed to be even higher with the passage of mandatory healthcare
#4161130
Lvl 16
Third party payer is NOT necessary to the extent it is currently used. It does distort costs to the disadvantage of the consumer. You will see very little difference in the price of two doctors because they effectively use the insurance companies to price-fix. Third party payer should be for items over a certain amount, not for every single visit or prescription. It should be real insurance against catastrophic costs instead of what it has become. Insurance has done more to commoditize the health market than anything else because it has removed the option of finding a doctor you like and can afford with the "have insurance and get reasonably priced care or don't and pay through the nose" option.
#4161131
Lvl 20
The insurance companies caused the lawsuits themselves in a lot of cases.

Shit, when my friend just had his accident and put in a claim to his insurance company they set him up with an attorney who promptly sued the other guys insurance for 10 times more than his insurance would have been willing to pay out.

If you have a major health issue and your insurance company thinks they can get away with suing the doctor to recover their money they will go at him with a team of lawyers that would rival OJ's attorney's and take from his insurance company way more than they even paid out in the first place.
#4161132
Healthcare is a product of the modern world, The price of everything health related is artificially inflated because there are no caps on artificially inflated lawsuits, so medical related insurance has to prepare them selves for Judges and juries that award exorbitant "repair" and "replacement" settlements.


NEEDS MORE CAPS

#4161133
Lvl 11
Quote:
Tort reform refers to proposed changes in the civil justice system that would reduce tort litigation or damages. Tort is a system for compensating wrongs and harm done by one party to another's person, property or other protected interests (e.g. reputation, under libel and slander laws). Tort reform advocates focus on personal injury in particular.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tort_reform

Tort Reform is the biggest part of the Republicans idea how to reform healthcare, and tort reform is strongly opposed by Democrats. There's no tort reform in the current bill.
#4161134
Lvl 16
A lot of people are going to be pissed when they realize that the current bill they will probably pass this weekend is going to do nothing for them but force them to buy insurance.
#4161135
Lvl 20
Fuck Republicans and Democrats. The Republicans just give a shit about the wealthy and the Democrats only give a shit about the dirt poor and nobody gives half a fuck about anybody in the middle who hold the majority of votes but don't use them to our advantage.

I wish a gang war would break out between the 2 parties and they'd just all kill each other off leaving nothing but free minded un-brainwashed people behind to clean up the mess.

Elect a lower middle class intelligent hard working non-politician to the office and see what the hell happens. As long as our candidates come from the Republican and Democratic pool of idiots we're never gonna have a good President because they come into the job with biases, vendettas and bullshit agendas created by their parties. They already owe favors to people from a life of politics, they're already bought and sold ten times over before they make the journey up the ladder to President.

Isn't the fact that the Republicans accepted Sarah Palin and that the Democrats accepted Hillary Clinton as possible candidates enough proof that neither of them have any intelligence whatsoever? Fuck the parties, vote for what's right not which team you're parents told you to be on.

Fortunately for me my mom's whole side of the family are right wing Republicans and my dad's whole side of the family are left wing Democrats. So I got to watch the stupidity of both my entire childhood and grow up to be a free thinking individual who refuses to listen to anything Glenn Beck or Bill Maher has to say.
* This post has been modified : 15 years ago
#4161136
Lvl 12
You guys have it all wrong.

I just heard my president and Ms. Pelosi tell us the other day that the 3 main reasons for our expensive healthcare are ...

1. Evil, heartless health insurance companies, with their only concern being profits ... that is all they care about ... plus I've heard Will Ferrell say that before too, so it has to be true. Oh yeah, Keith Obermann reminded me last night, as he read from a teleprompter for an hour straight with horror stories of these mankind hating health insurance execs.
2. Paying for the uninsured's trips to the emergency room (our premiums go up to cover them)
3. Fraud in Medicare

Seems to me, 2 of those could be fixed without handing over healthcare to the government.

But oh well, they know best. My senator, Al Franken, says that healthcare is the main thing on everbody's mind, closely followed by global warming, and then putting people back to work. So yeah, Im confident that they will get things done right.
#4161137
Lvl 20
^obvious Republican is obvious.

If you're gonna point out the stupidity of one party, do the world a favor and realize the stupidity in your own party at the same time. You guys did produce the 2 Bush's and Sarah Palin so I wouldn't be climbing up too high on a pedestal cause the fall of reality is gonna hurt like a bitch.
#4161138
Lvl 12
Quote:
Originally posted by J-Swiss

^obvious Republican is obvious.



You're dead wrong. I work for big oil and big insurance. So i'm just looking out for my own best interests.
#4161139
Lvl 20
I really needed that. This thread just makes my blood boil and your last post actually made me laugh and relieved all the tension.

Thanks.
#4161140
Lvl 12
No problem.

Hey, what happened with your eye situation? Is it better, or does it still bother you? Did you go to a doctor and have it looked at? If so, was it spendy?
#4161141
Lvl 6
I cannot even begin to imagine NOT being able to go to the hospital or a doctor becuse of money or insurance concerns! It is NEVER an issue in Canada. Yes we have some problems, they need to be fixed, but god....going bankrupt over your health ?????? ITS INSANE! Apeople are defending that?? WTF ?
#4161142
Lvl 19
I cannot stay on the sidelines any longer... here is my rant on tort reform. Don't let anyone's rehtoric hide the facts...

In the most unambiguous terms, tort reform hurts the American people by taking away their legal rights to file a claim and receive fair compensation when they have been injured at the hands of another.

With an enormous bankroll and political clout, advocates of tort reform have done an impressive job convincing the American people that a tort reform “crisis” exists. However, an abundance of evidence indicates there is no crisis. Tort reform proponents claim that “frivolous lawsuits” and greedy lawyers are congesting our courts, bankrupting corporations, and draining the economy. The facts clearly speak to the contrary. Below are some of the major myths perpetuated by advocates of tort reform and the facts, which prove their fiction.

MYTH #1: Frivolous lawsuits are flooding our legal system.

FACT: Frivolous lawsuits do not exist as represented by tort reformers.

A May 2006 study conducted by Harvard School of Public Health and Brigham and Women’s Hospital shows that 97 percent of medical malpractice claims are meritorious . Eighty percent of those claims involved physical injury, which killed or permanently disabled the victim. Sadly, only 56 of these claimants received compensation for their losses.

FACT: The number of lawsuits has significantly decreased in recent years.

Between 2002 and 2003, the number of tort cases filed on the federal level decreased by 28 percent, according to the Administrative Office of the U.S. Courts. In 2005, the Justice Department reported that the number of federal cases has decreased by 79 percent since 1985.
Between 1992 and 2001, the number of civil trials filed in state courts decreased by 47 percent, according to the Department of Justice. The number of tort cases specifically, decreased by 31.8 percent during that same time.

FACT: Businesses, not consumers, are far more likely to file frivolous lawsuits.

Businesses and their attorneys are far more likely to file frivolous claims than the average American. In a recent study, 69 of the 100 most recent sanctions due to cases of frivolous lawsuits were against businesses and their attorneys. US businesses file four times as many lawsuits than private citizens.

MYTH #2: Plaintiffs are being awarded outrageous and unwarranted sums of money for their losses.

FACT: The amount of compensation awarded in personal injury cases is in decline.

The amount of compensation awarded to victims, who have been seriously injured through no fault of their own, has drastically decreased over the past few years, according to the Department of Justice. Between 1992 and 2001 the average personal injury award decreased by 56.3 percent.

FACT: The payout in medical malpractice cases has decreased over the last four years.

A 2005 Public Citizen study revealed that medical malpractice payments to victims fell nearly 14 percent between 2001 and 2004. In 2001, juries voted against injured victims in three of four medical malpractice trials, according to the Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS).

MYTH #3: Capping damages lowers medical malpractice insurance premiums for doctors.

FACT: Tort reform caps result in savings for insurance companies NOT doctors.

Capping damages does NOT translate into savings for doctors who continue to pay exorbitant medical malpractice insurance premiums. According to an independent research organization, “most insurers continued to increase [doctor's] premiums at a rapid pace, regardless of caps” or reductions in plaintiff's awards (Weiss Ratings 6/3/03).

In states with tort reform caps on damages, the average insurance premiums are nearly ten percent higher than the average in states without caps (The Medical Liability Monitor, 2004). Take it from the insurance industry, “Insurers never promised that tort reform would achieve specific savings [on insurance premiums]” – the American Insurance Association.

Medical malpractice insurance costs are cyclical. Litigation does not drive the cycle.

Based upon the overall surge in malpractice premiums with no corresponding surge in claim payments during the last five years, the leading malpractice insurers have increased their surplus by more than a third overall IN ONLY THREE YEARS, and they are now charging more for malpractice insurance than either their actual payments in malpractice cases or their estimated future payments in malpractice cases could ever justify.

Therefore, doing away with fair compensation for victims will NOT help American citizen AND it will do nothing to help doctors who pay high insurance costs.

MYTH #4: The tort system places a $300 billion burden on the economy.

FACT: There is no such thing as a tort-tax.

The figure in the myth above comes from the insurance industry, which has a vested interest in propagating tort reform myths. In this so-called cost assessment, Tillinghast-Towers Perrin included insurance company costs, overhead, and the salaries of the insurance industry's CEOs. For example, the salary of AIG's chairman—a whopping $29 million a year—was figured into this supposed cost of the tort system. The TTP assessment didn't include relevant data, which makes their figure more a reflection of the cost of the insurance industry rather than the cost of the tort system.
The idea of a “tort tax” dates back to 1988, when one man coined the term and quantified this so-called tax in a book called Liability. Several researchers immediately examined this man's methods of determining this tax. They found that he had made it up. “The $300 billion figure has no discernable connection to reality,” observed The Economist.

The Congressional Budget Office has repudiated the so-called tort tax.

MYTH #5: Medical malpractice claims run up the cost of healthcare.

FACT: Medical malpractice claims have a negligible effect on US health costs.

According to the Congressional Budget Office in January 2004, medical malpractice costs constituted only two percent of the total cost of healthcare in the United States. Other figures from Public Citizen show that malpractice costs represent only 0.62 percent of the nation's expenditures for health care.

In 2003, the top HMOs in the United States reported doubling their profits, according to the Jacksonville Business Journal.

MTYH #6: Lawsuits are filed at the slightest provocation.

FACT: Many people who are seriously injured never file a claim.

Of the hundreds of thousands of people who are harmed by medical malpractice annually, only one in eight ever file a claim, according to a Harvard Study.

Of the thousands of people injured by consumer products each year, only ten percent file a claim to seek compensation for their losses and suffering, according to a study by the Rand Institute for Civil Defense.

MYTH #7: Doctors are forced to practice “defensive medicine” for fear of medical malpractice lawsuits.

FACT: No evidence indicates that doctors practice “defensive medicine” as a response to lawsuit threats.

Defensive medicine, or extra medical tests given to avoid lawsuits, is a concept developed by a member of the Bush Administration. Every independent researcher who has tried to replicate this man's findings has been unable to do so, indicating that his findings were entirely fabricated (Public Citizen).

MYTH #8: Lawsuits threaten to drive doctors out of practice and bankrupt small businesses and factories.

FACT: Most lawsuits are not even filed against doctors or companies.

Most lawsuits involve complaints by one private citizen against another. Only 39 percent of tort lawsuits involve an individual filing a claim against a business (The Department of Justice). A lawsuit cannot destroy a business unless that business generates a profit based on fraudulent or unsafe practices (Public Citizen).

FACT: The number of lawsuits against doctors is decreasing while the number of practicing physicians is increasing.
Evidence shows that the number of lawsuits filed against doctors has declined in recent years, while the number of practicing physicians has increased. According to the American Medical Association, the number of US doctors has increased by 40 percent since 1990. Additionally, since 1990, the number of ER doctors has doubled, the number of neurosurgeons has increased by 20 percent, and the number of OB/GYN doctors has increased by 25 percent.

There is not one shred of evidence to suggest that medical malpractice claims are forcing doctors to close their doors. While some doctors have suffered due to high insurance premiums, we know these costs have nothing to do with lawsuits and are purely the product of a rapacious insurance industry.

MYTH #9: Punitive damages are awarded to often and for too much money.

FACT: Punitive damages are rarely rewarded in civil suits.

Punitive damages are only awarded in 3.3 percent of all tort trials won by the victim, according to the Department of Justice). Punitive damages are intended to punish the defendant in cases of blatant or malicious wrongdoing and prevent others from committing similar acts in the future. Given the statistics, it would seem that punitive damages are very conservatively awarded to the victims of egregious acts.

OTHER FACTS THAT PEOPLE SHOULD KNOW:

• In 1995, the tobacco industry funded half the American Tort Reform Association's budget – $5.5 million a year. The money trail of many tort reform advocacy groups is traced to big tobacco, the pharmaceutical industry, large corporate donors, auto manufacturers, and medical associations.

• Less than 6 percent of the nation's doctors are responsible for over 57 percent of the payouts in medical malpractice lawsuits. (Public Citizen 4/2005)

• Of all the personal injury claims filed, only five percent are medical malpractice claims and another five percent are product liability claims. A big percentage of personal injury claims are filed by one citizen against another in a vehicle accident claim.

• Victims bear the lion's share of medical malpractice costs—including lost lives, additional medical expenses, time out of work, pain and suffering, and more.

#4161143
Lvl 16
Quote:
Originally posted by ricky_baby100

I cannot even begin to imagine NOT being able to go to the hospital or a doctor becuse of money or insurance concerns! It is NEVER an issue in Canada. Yes we have some problems, they need to be fixed, but god....going bankrupt over your health ?????? ITS INSANE! Apeople are defending that?? WTF ?



You ain't gonna like my answer here, and I ain't saying there are not problems that need to be fixed, but if your health is not worth you going bankrupt over then why is it worth me paying any money toward? If you don't care enough to go into debt then why should I care enough to give a damn penny for you? Just saying...
#4161144
Quote:
Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

...


You ain't gonna like my answer here, and I ain't saying there are not problems that need to be fixed, but if your health is not worth you going bankrupt over then why is it worth me paying any money toward? If you don't care enough to go into debt then why should I care enough to give a damn penny for you? Just saying...

I am me and you are you... let's live together
#4161145
Lvl 11
Quote:
Originally posted by J-Swiss

Fuck Republicans and Democrats. The Republicans just give a shit about the wealthy and the Democrats only give a shit about the dirt poor and nobody gives half a fuck about anybody in the middle who hold the majority of votes but don't use them to our advantage.


First of all, those stereotypes are pretty inaccurate and unfair to both sides.

Second, it doesn't matter if you remove the labels or not. Half of the people in this country think the solution is less government control, and half think the solution is more government control, so you can randomly pick a person from every district in your State for the House, and 2 people from each State for the Senate, and they're still going to be divided roughly the same as they are now when they have to decide whether to expand Governments role, or reduce it.
#4161146
Quote:
Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

...


You ain't gonna like my answer here, and I ain't saying there are not problems that need to be fixed, but if your health is not worth you going bankrupt over then why is it worth me paying any money toward? If you don't care enough to go into debt then why should I care enough to give a damn penny for you? Just saying...


I agree with you 100%, and why should i pay for health care for people who refuse to work? ; and also deliberately pump out babies for extra money? !all you lazy worthless fucks in the throat.
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