How Bad Is American Health Care...Really?

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Originally posted by silkie71

If you like the U.S. Postal Service, you will love the heathcare you receive and pay for if the current bill passes!

What?

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Originally posted by brownell

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What?

Ever walk into a post office with 12 people in line and only one clerk because it's break time for the others!

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Originally posted by toledoguy

I've been to Canada and Australia. Canada sales tax around 7% Gifts and Services tax...can't remember but over 10% closer to !7%. So where does this money go...maybe to healthcare subsidies?

It goes to the fat guys

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Originally posted by brownell

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That's funny that you'd complain of such, since that's exactly what you did in post #196, by cutting and pasting ~120 lines from a website for Lawyers.

"WTF do you expect those self interested bastards to say"

I totally admit that I have a dog in the hunt when it comes to tort reform. I just honestly believe that the govt should not screw up the legal system... or healthcare for that matter.

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Originally posted by FamilyGuy

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I totally admit that I have a dog in the hunt when it comes to tort reform. I just honestly believe that the govt should not screw up the legal system... or healthcare for that matter.

The govt and lawyers have already screwed up the healthcare system. Get them out of the way so we can afford it again.

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Originally posted by Phaxmeone

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The govt and lawyers have already screwed up the healthcare system. Get them out of the way so we can afford it again.

And insurance companies.

But the third-party payer/majority coverage thing is a result of government tax incentives for employers to provide insurance since it's cheaper for a corporation to buy it than it is for individuals to buy it. So, basically, what you said.

Of course, when individuals buy their own insurance, they look for the most affordable plan that serves them the best, and when corporations buy insurance for their employees, some HR benefits manager is looking for the most affordable plan only.

Perverse incentives abound.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

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And insurance companies.

But the third-party payer/majority coverage thing is a result of government tax incentives for employers to provide insurance since it's cheaper for a corporation to buy it than it is for individuals to buy it. So, basically, what you said.

Of course, when individuals buy their own insurance, they look for the most affordable plan that serves them the best, and when corporations buy insurance for their employees, some HR benefits manager is looking for the most affordable plan only.

Perverse incentives abound.

Or in the case of my company, our insurance company is a major stockholder. They wont look for a cheaper plan.

Join the rest of the world and take care of your citizens! Then...you can be truly a great place to live.

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Originally posted by ricky_baby100

Join the rest of the world and take care of your citizens! Then...you can be truly a great place to live.

Huhh??

We're already a great place to live. I don't know what you foreigners are seeing or reading, but it must be nonsense. Probably Michael Moore telling you we have people dying on the streets from gang green or something. Whatever, think what you want ... who gives a f***

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Originally posted by ricky_baby100

Join the rest of the world and take care of your citizens! Then...you can be truly a great place to live.

Or, better yet, we could provide the best atmosphere for our citizens to take care of themselves and each other, voluntarily.


As an aside...

I live in the UK and i only have good things to say about our health system. Granted there are problems with it, but for the most part it runs well. I can't personally name anyone i know that has had a major issue with our system.

When i was younger i got hit by a speeding car and spent a few weeks in hospital, then about 6 weeks on crutches, a few months of rehab to finish it off and it cost me £0/$0. I've had to use the ER several times for fractured cheekbones, snapped ankle ligaments, etc. Again non of this cost me. Obviously you pay taxes, but that is just taken without me really noticing, so i never have any thoughts of coverage.

I have my local GP. If i need to see him i ring up and get a visit in a few days at most. If it is urgent i'd use the ER where you get seen asap, dependning on the importance of it.

I know people who have use our health system for all sorts of things, childbirth, broken bones, cancer, etc. Non have them have ever complained to me about poor service. Granted people have a minor gripe, "i had to wait a week, it's normally a few days.." but no system is perfect.

I don't really understand why you oppose the government having control over it. From my outside view i see the U.S government system as somewhat corrupt with the lobbying and bank handed payments for shit, but why can't it works as well as the U.K/Canada/Australia?, which for the most part seem okay?

We let our government take care of the NHS. As i've said generally it's alright. It has issues from time to time, i.e isolated cleanliness issues, lack of doctors, waiting lists etc. However over time this shit gets taken care of and most people get a good standard of service.

Most general elections, the NHS is one of the big issues. Health Care is obviously important to everyone, so rightly so it is a deciding factor for some people on who to vote for. If the government have done a shit job with the NHS, then the media kicks up a fuss and the other guy says "reform, we can do it better" Which is either a kick up the arse, or they get voted out and someone else comes in and changes it up.

Why wouldn't this work for you guys? If they are fucking it up, people will get pissed, the other guys will say "we'll make health care good", then they get voted in and try to improve it.

the people on juries have alot to do with the problem, too. 90% of the people who serve on juries are unemployed or retired. they tend to stick up for the little guy & cram it to the insurance companies who then cram it to their insurance premium payers.

without tort reform this whole health care thing is a huge boondoggle destined to balloon out of control. & you young working guys are going to have to be paying for it. not me.

Az

The American health care system isnt that bad...can it be better?? yes! Is there a better system in the world?? NOPE!! People from all around the world come to America to be treated for various illnesses.

With all that being said....the American healthcare system is getting ready to get real bad that to Barak Hussain Obama and his bobble headed Democrats!!!

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Originally posted by Five-oh

Is there a better system in the world?? NOPE!! People from all around the world come to America to be treated for various illnesses.

Try Spain or France. Only people who can afford it come to the US as well. Explain why the pacemaker sold to the UK NHS by an American company costs the NHS $5000 but $15000 to the US "health system"

That's why there's a lobby to retain the status quo - big corporations are making a fortune out of your insurance premiums.

The health care I've experienced in 3 different European systems was both free & outstanding. My venture into a US hospital with strained ligaments produced a large bill which even included the safety pin for the bandage which was also on the invoice. Land of the Free? Ha!

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Originally posted by HipsterDufus

I live in the UK and i only have good things to say about our health system. Granted there are problems with it, but for the most part it runs well. I can't personally name anyone i know that has had a major issue with our system.

When i was younger i got hit by a speeding car and spent a few weeks in hospital, then about 6 weeks on crutches, a few months of rehab to finish it off and it cost me £0/$0. I've had to use the ER several times for fractured cheekbones, snapped ankle ligaments, etc. Again non of this cost me. Obviously you pay taxes, but that is just taken without me really noticing, so i never have any thoughts of coverage.

I'm glad that you like your health care system.

When I was a kid, my friend broke his femur skiing. He was laid up in the hospital for months while it healed. It cost him nothing other than what his parents paid for insurance. About 8 years ago, he was in a car accident, fractured his skull, in the hospital again for a while. Again, cost him nothing except for what he pays as insurance premiums.

I am using him as an example because I have not had any serioious medical issues, other than being stitched up a bunch of times.

So, I pay insurance premiums and like the quality of my healthcare, you pay more taxes and like the quality of yours.

If the price of gasoline all of the sudden went to almost 3 times as much, like the amount you pay compared to us, people here will complain a lot more than they are now about healthcare prices. Now, you can say health is more important than the freedom to get around with cheap petro prices, but your food is also more expensive because of those prices. Healthcare ... Food ... I'll choose cheaper food any day.

So, you Americans who are looking for government healthcare, be prepared when the cost of other things go up to pay for it.

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Originally posted by hornithologist

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So, you Americans who are looking for government healthcare, be prepared when the cost of other things go up to pay for it.

Right, All those who already have healthcare and/or could have if they wanted it will be the ones who pay for those who don't currently have it, and/or don't want to pay for it. I will likely drop my healthcare plan if the current bill passes, as I've never needed it for over 3 decades, and the penalty for not purchasing healthcare is far less than I pay now for premiums.

Also, those of you who think Americans are dying in the streets for lack of healthcare, you're a bit confused. We already have Federally funded healthcare for those who can not afford it.

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What is Medicaid?

Medicaid is a jointly funded, Federal-State health insurance program for low-income and needy people. It covers children, the aged, blind, and/or disabled and other people who are eligible to receive federally assisted income maintenance payments. http://www.socialsecurityonline.gov/

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Originally posted by brownell

the penalty for not purchasing healthcare is far less than I pay now for premiums.

Many people, or their employers, will make that same decision. That is what is being counted on to ensure that the crap they are passing now stays forever. One guy even mentioned they either have to pass a bad bill now or they never will get one passed at all. That sounds like a power grab more than anything to help the people.

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Originally posted by brownell

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Also, those of you who think Americans are dying in the streets for lack of healthcare, you're a bit confused.
[quote]What is Medicaid?

I'm not confused, I've sat in a doc in the box watching desperate poor people paying as they go because they can't afford good insurance

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Originally posted by Southernboy10

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The health care I've experienced in 3 different European systems was both free & outstanding. My venture into a US hospital with strained ligaments produced a large bill which even included the safety pin for the bandage which was also on the invoice.

... and that seems right to you? That someone else MUST pay for your many misfortunes (whether self imposed or not), while taking no benefit from it themselves?

Also, Eric may choose to expand on this, but there really isn't much to be done for strained ligaments other than supporting the affected joint from further damage. You probably should have got an ace-bandage from the medicine cabinet and a bag of frozen peas from the freezer instead of going to the "Emergency Room"

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Originally posted by Southernboy10

Land of the Free? Ha!

You might want to brush up on your American history as well as your deductive reasoning if you're suggesting that the line in the National Anthem that reads "The Land of the Free" re-enforces your argument that it's the Governments job to regulate it's citizens healthcare choices.

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Originally posted by Southernboy

I've sat in a doc in the box watching desperate poor people paying as they go because they can't afford good insurance

If a "doc in the box" is an Emergency room or doctors office..... I don't believe you.

Brownell's right, there is nothing you can do for a sprained ligament, and the treatment course generally consists of ice immediately after, to keep swelling down, heat after that, elevation and in severe cases splinting. The problem is that ligaments are quite avascular, and therefore don't heal quickly, and as such physical intervention, things like surgery...etc, are generally useless.

Same if you have a cold, or the flu, etc. Millions of Emergency Room visits are wasted every year because people show up to the ER with these things that should NOT be wasting the time and resources of hospitals and care practitioners.

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Originally posted by Southernboy10

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Try Spain or France. Only people who can afford it come to the US as well. Explain why the pacemaker sold to the UK NHS by an American company costs the NHS $5000 but $15000 to the US "health system"

There are a number of reasons, but one of the largest ones is because the US private paying customers are subsidizing the sale of drugs and equipment to socialized countries that are able, through their monopoly on the entire health expenditures of their nation, to strong-arm companies into providing equipment and pharmaceuticals under fair market value. As someone who makes use of this subsidy, you should be thankful that this healthcare bill does nothing to fix this issue, and you'll still benefit from the subsidization of your healthcare by the US healthcare industry. You're welcome. Feel free to keep suckin' on that US teat.

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Originally posted by Souternboy

That's why there's a lobby to retain the status quo - big corporations are making a fortune out of your insurance premiums.

Do you know anything about the bill being passed? It is, essentially, a government law that forces everyone in the country to BUY PRIVATE INSURANCE from private companies. It's a boon to the "big corporations" that are the insurance giants.

If it was going to really stick it to the insurance companies, you'd think their stock performance would be hitting the shitter, right?

See if you can figure out which of these 5 graphs are 4 insurance companies and which one is the S&P 500 over the same time period. (Hint: the S&P isn't the one flying skyward over the last week)



Part of the joke of this legislation is that it's "reform" with NO COST CONTROLS, which is the main problem in the first place.

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Originally posted by Souternboy

The health care I've experienced in 3 different European systems was both free & outstanding. My venture into a US hospital with strained ligaments produced a large bill which even included the safety pin for the bandage which was also on the invoice.

Egads, you had to pay for a service you used?! How uncouth.

So where does it end?

Everyone should be entitled to healthcare?
Everyone should be entitled to free food?
Everyone should be entitled to a house?
Everyone should be entitled to a car?
Everyone should be entitled to a job that pays above median wage?
Everyone should be entitled to a sexy girlfriend?
Everyone should be entitled to an excellent post-secondary education?
Everyone should be entitled to a big-screen TV?
Everyone should be entitled to ponies and unicorns?

There is no difference between them, in a logical sense. Food and shelter are basic necessities, transportation, companionship, education and transportation are all as essential to a "good" life as is healthcare. And who's going to pay for all these things? You cannot continually take from the "haves" to provide for the "have-nots." It's theorized, it's been tried, and it's been a resounding failure every time it's been seriously attempted. And in the meantime, dictatorial despots have used such arguments to enslave and subjugate millions of people across numerous generations.

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Originally posted by SB

Land of the Free? Ha!

Wow. Way to show you don't know anything about it. Land of the "free" doesn't refer to the sticker price of items that people feel they need. It refers to the right of everyone to be "free" from tyranny and oppression; which, ironically, is antithetical to the passage of this bill.

Freedom, in the libertarian sense, and, in my opinion synchronous with natural law, is not taking from others to give to yourself.


Finally, let me add that I find it abhorrent that our Congress can spit in the eye of more than 50% of the population of the United States citizenry.

Although, I shouldn't be surprised, since the opposition to the TARP bailouts was about 300:1, and yet it passed as well.