Proposition 8

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Originally posted by Bangledesh

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It's the Church that says marriage is between a man and woman.

That's like saying that our government endorses or supports it. Which it can't. So, if anything, the government needs to allow gay marriage.

Except that you forget the government has no legal right to allow/not allow anything, it's up to a vote of people (whether it's us, or the representatives we pick). Unfortunately for some, they voted to not allow it this time. It's simply above the governments power to make up law without the consent of the people. Civil rights for minorities and women were fought for in the same way. It will just take time.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

I see no reason why I should consider myself in a position to decide an issue with the gravity of "marriage" for other people. It's none of my business, and it shouldn't be the business of anyone besides the consenting adults.

+1

Just curious

If same sex couples were given the option to file taxes jointly, share insurance, death benefits, and have all the other benefits as "traditional" married couples, but a name other than "marriage" was assigned to this type of union, would that be agreeable, or does it have to be referred to as "marriage"?

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Originally posted by sugarpie26

@ blazingglory

This One!

I appreciate how you can't support homosexuality, but are open minded enough to realize that it doesn't affect you.

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Well, to be fair, it's not that I don't support it, it's just not for me. The thought of it repulses me, as I'm sure hetero might for you in the sense that you can't do it. What you do is up to you, though. And you're right, it doesn't affect me, or Old McDonald up there lol...

I personally believe that a marriage should be between a "man" and a "woman" anything else would weaken the definition and respect for the institution of marriage.

Its only my opinion and I understand most people don't feel the same why and that's fine too

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Originally posted by thegame14

I dont mind if they have civil unions or commitment ceremonies, but I draw the line where they want to call it marriage and get the same rights as a man and a woman being married. They should be able to share medical care, and property and stuff like that, but they cannot get financial benefits for it. For example they can never file a joint tax return or get any govt benefits for being married, that would be like saying our government endorses or supports it, which it should not.

I think that should answer your question for him Brownell. However, I don't think that all people feel that way who are against gay marriage. If you look at my post above, I think most of them fall into that category of people who confuse the situation with one where their church is required to hold their marriage equivalent to others or that they would then be required to marry two men/women. As soon as you mention 'civil union' though, they are totally fine with it. Pathetic.

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Originally posted by blazingglory

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Well, to be fair, it's not that I don't support it, it's just not for me. The thought of it repulses me, as I'm sure hetero might for you in the sense that you can't do it. What you do is up to you, though. And you're right, it doesn't affect me, or Old McDonald up there lol...

I identified as bisexual for many years, before I realized that being with a man just didn't appeal to me any longer...truth be told I don't think I ever really was bi, I just was trying to appease my family in a way...you know...I'm bi, so there is still hope for you that its just a phase and I'll marry a nice Catholic boy. So while the thought of being with a man now really is not appealing, it doesn't repulse me. So on this note....why are two women together considered hot, by most heterosexual men?

Quote:

Originally posted by blazingglory

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Except that you forget the government has no legal right to allow/not allow anything, it's up to a vote of people (whether it's us, or the representatives we pick). Unfortunately for some, they voted to not allow it this time. It's simply above the governments power to make up law without the consent of the people. Civil rights for minorities and women were fought for in the same way. It will just take time.

My post was in response to thegame's post. Illuminating his one sided logic, and that through the separation of church and state, using his argument, same sex marriage should be allowed.

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Originally posted by MrMagicBrownies

I personally believe that a marriage should be between a "man" and a "woman" anything else would weaken the definition and respect for the institution of marriage.

Its only my opinion and I understand most people don't feel the same why and that's fine too

Ok so then great, how do you in this day and age, define "man" and "woman"? With sexual reassignment surgeries where the finished product is a "man" or "woman", now what? Also, don't forget that some people are actually born with both sets of sexual organs. What there? Again, them doing their own thing will not in any way shape or form harm you.

Quote:

Originally posted by brownell

Just curious

If same sex couples were given the option to file taxes jointly, share insurance, death benefits, and have all the other benefits as "traditional" married couples, but a name other than "marriage" was assigned to this type of union, would that be agreeable, or does it have to be referred to as "marriage"?

Since I support the separation of church and state, I would be inclined to agree with your proposition. However, marriage wasn't just spontaneously created by Christianity, it is a cultural characteristic that predates many contemporary religions, so to tacitly allow the church sole proprietary ownership of the term seems unreasonable. As a heterosexual, though, I can't speak, with any real clarity, for any other sexual orientation.

Then again, I'm also vehemently opposed to the literal interpretation of the Bible.

Quote:

Originally posted by sugarpie26

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I identified as bisexual for many years, before I realized that being with a man just didn't appeal to me any longer...truth be told I don't think I ever really was bi, I just was trying to appease my family in a way...you know...I'm bi, so there is still hope for you that its just a phase and I'll marry a nice Catholic boy. So while the thought of being with a man now really is not appealing, it doesn't repulse me. So on this note....why are two women together considered hot, by most heterosexual men?

Ok, so what I said was a reach, but I guess I made my point. As far as two girls...that's where I was kinda trying to go with what I last said. I'm not against homosexuality, I'm just not for it personally. Why are two women together hot? Most beautiful creation in the world + Most beautiful creation in the world = Hot. I know women who don't like the thought of being with another woman but don't mind watching two guys make out. Same thing I guess. *shrug*

People are just hypocritical by nature. No rhyme or reason to it, though it sucks.


@Bangladesh - sorry, I didn't realize.

Quote:

Originally posted by blazingglory

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Ok so then great, how do you in this day and age, define "man" and "woman"? With sexual reassignment surgeries where the finished product is a "man" or "woman", now what? Also, don't forget that some people are actually born with both sets of sexual organs. What there? Again, them doing their own thing will not in any way shape or form harm you.

Don't get me started on sexual reassignment surgeries, on the subject of same sex marriage like I said its just the way I feel. As far as how I define it well I assume that when everyone is born it is listed on their birth certificate the sex of the baby so I guess I'd just use that as a guideline, if I gotta have one

And yeah I never thought it would hurt me in any way

Quote:

Originally posted by blazingglory

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Ok, so what I said was a reach, but I guess I made my point. As far as two girls...that's where I was kinda trying to go with what I last said. I'm not against homosexuality, I'm just not for it personally. Why are two women together hot? Most beautiful creation in the world + Most beautiful creation in the world = Hot. I know women who don't like the thought of being with another woman but don't mind watching two guys make out. Same thing I guess. *shrug*

People are just hypocritical by nature. No rhyme or reason to it, though it sucks.


@Bangladesh - sorry, I didn't realize.

NP mate, my post was confusing.

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Originally posted by MrMagicBrownies

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Don't get me started on sexual reassignment surgeries, on the subject of same sex marriage like I said its just the way I feel. As far as how I define it well I assume that when everyone is born it is listed on their birth certificate the sex of the baby so I guess I'd just use that as a guideline, if I gotta have one

And yeah I never thought it would hurt me in any way

I didn't imply that the person had to be an adult when I mentioned sexual reassignment. Like I said, there are people born who are both male and female at the same time. The parents and doctor decide (sometimes unsuccessfully) which sex they want.

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Originally posted by thegame14

not allowed to get into the religious part of this, but it can never be allowed, woman was made to be man's only companion, Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve

The ol' "Adam and Steve" thing has to be one of the hackiest, cliche things ever to be honest, I'd advise dropping that line from your reportoire forever. I quit little message board "discussions" a while ago, so I'm not getting into the never-ending gay issue, but Adam and Steve? Come on, I know it rhymes; people think lil phrases are cute and latch onto them, but lets get a little more original here.

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Originally posted by deathrider138

Its amazing to me that people seem to have such fear in talking to their children.
I don't want to have to explain to my children this or that. Why? I'd rather them
ask me questions than either not know or ask someone else. It might be uncomfortable
but I think you and your child will be better off in the long run.

Exactly. My only great ambition in life aside from marrying the girl I've been with for the past 8 years (since I was 15) is being a great husband and father. Everything else will flow from that. People are too busy striving for success in other places, when true success can only begin in the home. Interestingly enough, people are also more intent on worrying about what goes on in other people's homes, rather than what their child does in the room next to them. Being a good parent is more than providing a roof, food and an XBox360/PC with internet. Take the time to actually teach your child the way you want them to be taught instead of bitching when someone else does it for you. If you take the initiative, the child will already be one step ahead of the curve, being able to decide for themselves when the time comes, rather than being brainwashed by a teacher who they are told is always right.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

Just a hypothetical question:

Which cheapens marriage more:

- Heterosexual couples with a divorce rate approaching 60%, cheating spouses and abusive relationships?

or

- Homosexual couples with a much lower divorce rate, rate of cheating, and abusive relationships?

?

You make it sound like there is a ton of evidence that homosexuals are going to be better at marriage than heterosexuals. I doubt that will be true. Gays are human beings just like straights, with the same flaws and weaknesses. Do I think they will be any worse than straights at staying together? Nope. But no better either. Once gay marriage becomes "normal", for lack of a better word, you will see more societal pressure on gays to get married just like straight people get and you will see more BS marriages just like straight people. Gays are not immune to the same BS straight have.

I find it so interesting that citizens are always complaining that Government is telling them what they can, and cannot do. But with California Proposition 8, the Government smartly decided to let the voters (you know, your peers??) decide, and now that the voters have decided AGAINST gay marriage, the citizens are upset? WTF.

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Originally posted by Great_Schlep

I find it so interesting that citizens are always complaining that Government is telling them what they can, and cannot do. But with California Proposition 8, the Government smartly decided to let the voters (you know, your peers??) decide, and now that the voters have decided AGAINST gay marriage, the citizens are upset? WTF.

Sometimes, in order to prevent the degradation of a progressive society, the government may be required to intervene, reinforcing what is morally and ethically just when society is incapable of doing it themselves -- see the Civil Rights Act.

Since Proposition 8 literally "eliminates [the] right of same-sex couples to marry," government intervention ought to be more than just a passing consideration. Unless, of course, you believe it constitutional to eliminate previously-recognized rights.

I'll catch up on the back reading in a bit, I just wanted to weigh in a bit.

What someone wants to do with there life is up to them. The Gov shouldn't tell you who you can love/marry. Its none of there damn buz. If they want to be so litteral then stop saying "seperation of church and state" and take God off of our fucking currency.

If a man/man want to get hitched great, let them be miserable together. Same for wimin/wimin, why should we straights have the cornered market on all the bureaucratic bullshit we have to put up with to get insurance or mortgage breaks.

So go on on kids hook up with anyone you want and have at it.

IMO..