Proposition 8

Quote:

Originally posted by Kanzen

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The No on Prop 2 here got worse by the day.

1. They claimed doctors would steal unborn fetuses during regular checkups and claim miscarriages were imminent.
2. They claimed people would be cloned against their will.
3. They claimed that cloned organs would run rampant.
4. They claimed that cloned organs would be solid on the black market.
5. They claimed that failed cloned organs would end up in patients in need of organ transfers.
6. They claimed our taxes would skyrocket to pay for it all.
7. They claimed it would allow 'special interests' to patent our genomes.

It got really absurd and insane. But it made a dent because they had a shit load of cash to put into advertising and Yes on Prop 8 couldn't keep up.

The crap people can get conned into believing..its sad. I wish local news outlets would do some fact based coverage on the prositions and ban propaganda for either side.

Quote:

Originally posted by thegame14

not allowed to get into the religious part of this, but it can never be allowed, woman was made to be man's only companion, Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve

Relating to validity:
The Bible also says that grasshoppers and locusts are four-legged (Leviticus 11:20-22.)
That rabbits chew cud (Deuteronomy 14:6-7.)
That, in relation to those that oppose you, you must "not leave alive anything that breathes" (Deuteronomy 20:10-15.)
I hope you enjoy killing people, because there is a lot of breathing going on, on this earth.
That Jesus' testimony about himself should both be considered valid, and invalid (John 5-31, John 8-14)
That the earth was placed on a foundation, and can never be moved (Psalms 104:5)
That you can only be saved through faith alone, and not by actions (Ephesians 2:8-9); and that you can only be saved according to your actions (Revelation 22:12)
That you are both supposed to "let your light shine before men" to earn praise for God (Matthew 5:16); and "be careful not to do your acts of righteousness before men" (Matthew 6:1)
That you are supposed to believe that Jesus came to bring peace (John 14:27), and that Jesus did not come to bring peace, but a sword (Matthew 10:34)
You are also supposed to believe that Jacob saw God (Genesis 32:30), and that no one has seen, or can see, God (John 1:18)
That gambling is wrong (Corinthians 6:9-10, Ecclesiastes 5:10, Hebrews 13:5, Matthew 6:24, Timothy 3:4-5, Timothy 6:10) and yet, Churches frequently sell raffle tickets, and participate in Casino night fundraisers. And God himself participated in a game of chance with Satan over Job.


Relating to this argument:
If you curse your parents, that's death (Leviticus 20:9)
If you commit adultery, that's death for everyone involved (Leviticus 20:10)
And if you participate in a homosexual relationship, that's also death. (Leviticus 20:13)

To me, there just seem to be too many contradictions, and double standards within the Bible, and the organized followers. I assume that you're a fairly strong believer based upon your post, but I assume that you also haven't gone and killed every person you see with a handkerchief hanging out of their back pocket. Why not?



Edit-
And entirely unrelated:

Why the hell are you on this site? This site is just about the most immoral site this side of /b/. All these naked women, and penises, and sex.

Here is my take. I live in California, and I voted Yes on 8.

In my opinion, if that's your lifestyle. Fine. In this day and age, what you do behind closed doors is your own business. You want to get married, its not hurting me. So its not the end of the world to me. In fact, I really could care less. And yes, I think its fucked up your community was granted marriage to have it stripped away.

My problem is with our kids potentially being taught about homosexuality when, well, when they are still little kids! As a parent myself, I'm sorry, I don't want elementary school kids being taught about gay marriage.

Lets face reality folks, in the US, anyone can sue for anything. And its not just someone gay suing a local district because they are being discriminated against by the LACK of instruction on gay marriage that I am concerned with, but its these stupid politicians and judges that will ORDER instruction on this topic, or just allow instruction to occur when parents object. No, in Massachusetts, some dumbass read a book about two princes marrying to second grade kids. That's fucking bullshit. Some sick fuck decides "I'm going to introduce a book with homosexual themes to second graders." And when 2 parents sued, the judged denied their claim, stating there is nothing wrong with materials "reasonably related to the goals of preparing students to become engaged and productive citizens in our democracy."

WTF? Are you serious? Second graders? And in Massachusetts? Here in California, where liberals grow on trees, its only a matter of time before teachers here and there, start reading King and King or whatever the fuck that book was called.
I'm sorry, I'm drawing the line on this issue before some book is being read to my kids.

The majority of people in this state passed the measure. Will it be respected? No. I doubt it. Everyone and their mother is suing over this trying to get prop 8 tossed. Its amazing to me, when the majority of people enact legislative change by vote, it can be thrown out later. THEN WHY THE FUCK DID WE VOTE ON IT?

Anyways, that's my take. Hopefully you can respect my values for my own kids, I know a lot of people voted for prop 8 just because they don't like gays, or felt marriage is strictly between men & women, but that wasn't me. I know what the next response will be... "They weren't being taught gay curriculum, just a simple book." My response to that is yeah, that's today... What about tomorrow? When some teacher feels he/she has to take it upon themselves to start their own curriculum?

And Kanzen, sorry man. I have to call you out on one point. Nothing I saw or read stated what you did about people lying to us saying gay instruction would be "mandatory." Here's the official CA voter guide arguments: http://www.voterguide.sos.ca.gov/pdf-guide/Props/arguments-rebuttals/prop8-arguments-pg56-57.pdf Nothing in there written by the supporters of prop 8 lied to us about gay education being forced on us.

I will say, people will lie about propositions, but let's face facts. It happens on BOTH sides. The pro arguement in prop 8 about the churches, yeah that's probably right. But the con arguement against prop 8 about it having nothing to do with kids, well not directly, but allowing gay marriage, particularly in a liberal state, will allow education about it to get into the schools. It already happened in Massachusetts. Only a matter of time...

Again, I'm not saying kids would have been taught any differently the day after the election had prop 8 failed, but it leaves my kids at risk of some teacher deciding to do this, or some gay activist, or the ACLU, deciding to sue and force same sex marriage to be taught in districts where they are taught man/woman marriage.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kanzen

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And apparently you can't read.

I read very well, sonny.Where you come from, are husbands not male and wives not female?
Hell, I'm not even taking a side here. I'm just saying, if you're going to accuse someone of having red herrings, amke sure yours ain't red...

Quote:

Originally posted by Kanzen

...

The No on Prop 2 here got worse by the day.

1. They claimed doctors would steal unborn fetuses during regular checkups and claim miscarriages were imminent.
2. They claimed people would be cloned against their will.
3. They claimed that cloned organs would run rampant.
4. They claimed that cloned organs would be sold on the black market.
5. They claimed that failed cloned organs would end up in patients in need of organ transfers.
6. They claimed our taxes would skyrocket to pay for it all.
7. They claimed it would allow 'special interests' to patent our genomes.

It got really absurd and insane. But it made a dent because they had a shit load of cash to put into advertising and Yes on Prop 8 couldn't keep up.

Other than 7 (and hey, can Michigan afford ANY more taxes?), I heard none of those. What's your source?

Quote:

Originally posted by BillK

I read very well, sonny.Where you come from, are husbands not male and wives not female?

Quote:

Originally posted by BillK

...



I read very well, sonny.Where you come from, are husbands not male and wives not female?
Hell, I'm not even taking a side here. I'm just saying, if you're going to accuse someone of having red herrings, amke sure yours ain't red...

No, it seems you can't—or you lack elementary cognitive skills. No where in the definition did they specify the gender of any of the parties. Did you noticed that there was absolutely no mention of them being of opposite sexes?

The underlying statement, as you said, "...in bring up polygamy, since that still involves male and female." is that it is mandatory that they be of opposite sexes. Polygamy is defined as a person with multiple spouses. There is no statement of them being different genders. There are plenty of homosexual polygamists. Your statement fits more of the context of a strawman argument than a red herring.

---

@ SoCal: I'm trying to find a copy of the commercial that was played in Sacramento and San Fran. Youtube is no help because everytime I find it, I click the link and it says it has been removed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Kanzen

@ SoCal: I'm trying to find a copy of the commercial that was played in Sacramento and San Fran. Youtube is no help because everytime I find it, I click the link and it says it has been removed.

No problem, and I'm open to debate over this. Don't take my comment as a personal calling you out, I just disagree. I saw a lot of materials, none sounded like "November 5th your kids will be taught gay marriage!" But I don't see all commercials in the state, I can concede that one existed.

I realize even if prop 8 failed, curriculums statewide would not change, but I can't have even one teacher reading some book like that to elementary school kids. I'm sorry, its not right.

Now, if you want to give me state legislation stating marriage should not be taught to kids at all in public schools, then fine, I'm no on 8.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

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I win.

Quote:

Originally posted by Honda_X

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I win.

I'm sorry..

I find it very telling when people say if gay marriage is allowed then that leads to people marrying a animal.
To me that says they are on the same level. That gay people are subhuman. Also its very amusing when people say
marriage is sacred. Yeah, ask Tina Turner or any other battered wife how sacred marriage is. In a country with
television shows like who wants to marry a midget? and who wants to marry a millionaire? I mean Michael Jackson
got married, how sacred is that shit?

And to Socal:

If you're so worried about what your children might learn in school, home school them.
Or better yet send them to a private school. So big deal a teacher read a book to some 2nd
graders that had a homosexual theme. Do you really think they understood that? Do you really think
that those children could be somehow harmed from hearing that? How many books do you remember from
the 2nd grade? So what exactly are your kids at "risk" of? Could they learn that gay marriage isn't
such an terrible thing? You based your whole argument on one incident. Does there really need to be
legislation that states marriage shouldn't be taught in school? Were you taught about marriage in school?
I know I wasn't. Anytime someone says " there aught to be a law" there really shouldn't be.

If you love someone you should be able to marry whoever....or whatever you....erm.....like!!!http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/2035996/Woman-%27married%27-to-Berlin-Wall-for-29-years.html

I haven't been able to find an actual ballot, but according to the link above (post 43), this is the language approved by the California Attorney General to appear on the ballot. If indeed this is what appeared on the ballot, I re-affirm my assertion that the question WAS NOT confusing, and further assert that those arguing that it is/was confusing are either uninformed, or trying to muddy the waters.

Quote:

PROP 8
ELIMINATES RIGHT OF SAME–SEX COUPLES TO MARRY. INITIATIVE CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT.

* Changes the California Constitution to eliminate the right of same-sex couples to marry in California.
* Provides that only marriage between a man and a woman is valid or recognized in California.

Quote:

Originally posted by SoCal.

Here is my take. I live in California, and I voted Yes on 8.

In my opinion, if that's your lifestyle. Fine. In this day and age, what you do behind closed doors is your own business. You want to get married, its not hurting me. So its not the end of the world to me. In fact, I really could care less. And yes, I think its fucked up your community was granted marriage to have it stripped away.

My problem is with our kids potentially being taught about homosexuality when, well, when they are still little kids! As a parent myself, I'm sorry, I don't want elementary school kids being taught about gay marriage.

Lets face reality folks, in the US, anyone can sue for anything. And its not just someone gay suing a local district because they are being discriminated against by the LACK of instruction on gay marriage that I am concerned with, but its these stupid politicians and judges that will ORDER instruction on this topic, or just allow instruction to occur when parents object. No, in Massachusetts, some dumbass read a book about two princes marrying to second grade kids. That's fucking bullshit. Some sick fuck decides "I'm going to introduce a book with homosexual themes to second graders." And when 2 parents sued, the judged denied their claim, stating there is nothing wrong with materials "reasonably related to the goals of preparing students to become engaged and productive citizens in our democracy."

WTF? Are you serious? Second graders? And in Massachusetts? Here in California, where liberals grow on trees, its only a matter of time before teachers here and there, start reading King and King or whatever the fuck that book was called.
I'm sorry, I'm drawing the line on this issue before some book is being read to my kids.

The majority of people in this state passed the measure. Will it be respected? No. I doubt it. Everyone and their mother is suing over this trying to get prop 8 tossed. Its amazing to me, when the majority of people enact legislative change by vote, it can be thrown out later. THEN WHY THE FUCK DID WE VOTE ON IT?

Anyways, that's my take. Hopefully you can respect my values for my own kids, I know a lot of people voted for prop 8 just because they don't like gays, or felt marriage is strictly between men & women, but that wasn't me. I know what the next response will be... "They weren't being taught gay curriculum, just a simple book." My response to that is yeah, that's today... What about tomorrow? When some teacher feels he/she has to take it upon themselves to start their own curriculum?

And Kanzen, sorry man. I have to call you out on one point. Nothing I saw or read stated what you did about people lying to us saying gay instruction would be "mandatory." Here's the official CA voter guide arguments:[ Link ] Nothing in there written by the supporters of prop 8 lied to us about gay education being forced on us.

I will say, people will lie about propositions, but let's face facts. It happens on BOTH sides. The pro arguement in prop 8 about the churches, yeah that's probably right. But the con arguement against prop 8 about it having nothing to do with kids, well not directly, but allowing gay marriage, particularly in a liberal state, will allow education about it to get into the schools. It already happened in Massachusetts. Only a matter of time...

Again, I'm not saying kids would have been taught any differently the day after the election had prop 8 failed, but it leaves my kids at risk of some teacher deciding to do this, or some gay activist, or the ACLU, deciding to sue and force same sex marriage to be taught in districts where they are taught man/woman marriage.

I completly 100% respect your opinion, I may not agree with it, but I don't have to. I made this thread to simply see what peoples feelings were on it, because on a ballot all you get to say is yes or no.
Let me ask you this; we teach our children about all sorts of horrible but real things in school. We teach them about wars and famine and depressions. We don't teach our children these things to scare them, we teach them this to inform them...so they know about it, and can form their own opinion some day. Why shouldn't they be taught that homosexuality exists? So that they are prepared for it when they are older. DO NOT give me the arguement that teaching a child about homosexuality may make them gay. Being gay IS NOT something you decide, IT IS NOT a choice; that argument is bullshit. Do you honestly think that I would choose to be classified as a 2nd class citizen, that I would choose to live my life in fear occasionally, that I would choose the pain of telling my parents and having them pretty much disown me. And I'm a woman, the men have it so much worse. Bring gay is something you are born with, not something you decide...you decide if you're going to come out or not.

Sugarpie: The topics you are referencing are something they are taught in high school, and at that age I can live with it. They are indeed taught and exposed to nearly EVERYTHING in their high school years, and likely have gay friends by that time. But 2nd graders? Come on, there has to be some innocence for a portion of one's childhood... And that brings me to...

Deathrider: I'm not going to defend marriage the institution... You are right, it means so little to so many now. Everyone cheating, half the US folks getting divorced. But I do disagree with your arguement. How dare you tell me what to do with my kids. I have a RIGHT to send my kids to receive an education. I pay my taxes, and I am entitled for them to go to a school to receive an education of language, arts, sciences, math. Private schools in this state are VERY expensive. I cannot home school my children. The state of California has stated I do not have a consitutional right to home school my kids. They made this ruling THIS YEAR. Even if I could, I work long days, I do not have time to do that. So, should I pickup my family and move to another state? Uproot everything we've worked hard for, leave our friends and family behind? Or squeeze us all into the cheapest 1 bedroom apartment, sell my house, so I can afford private school? Really? I should bend over backwards for the gay community so tomorrow some idiot somewhere will read a book like this, or take it upon himself to teach about marriage (which does happen), and incorporate gay marriage.

No, I don't think those kids understood that book. I don't want them to understand that book. I don't want them coming home asking questions about their book where 2 princes were married. Its not something I want them exposed to at that age. Period. I want them to continue to read books that are KIDS books. I want them to learn to add, subtract, and multiply. I want them to have spelling words. I want them to have a recess and a lunch. I don't want them hearing about a book where Bob and Bob got married, and lived happily ever after. No, I don't think they'll be scarred for life, but I don't want them thinking about why mommy and daddy being normal, isn't the only way people live anymore. My choice, my right, and the MAJORITY of people in this state agree with me. Seeing how liberal this state is, go ahead and ring up the rest of the country as likely to vote the same way.

The one problem I have with the gay marriage push is that there is no way you can allow gay marriage and not allow polygamy also. Not that I have an issue with either, but you can not be against polygamy and be for gay marriage. The rights are the same. Who are we to tell someone they can't have the right to marry the people they love just because they want to marry two people instead of one? That is especially true once we have decided that marriage is not relegated to people of the opposite sex. You can argue against it all you want, but in the end polygamy is older than monogamy and definitely older than gay marriage. And for many it is a part of their religion.

Personally, I wouldn't have voted for or against this in the current form. I don't feel strongly enough about it either way. Marriage either needs to be between two people of the opposite sex, or it needs to be opened up to any number of people of any sex. We need to stop this middle ground crap and actually decide whether we are for the rights of everyone or not.

Quote:

Originally posted by pantsman12

As long as one of the guys isn't in a wedding dress let them have a "Marriage".

Maybe they're girls & anyway why can't a guy wear a dress if he wants too? It worked for Frank Zappa.

Quote:

Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

Marriage either needs to be between two people of the opposite sex, or it needs to be opened up to any number of people of any sex. We need to stop this middle ground crap and actually decide whether we are for the rights of everyone or not.

Agreed. Although, I've already made my decision. I'm for the rights of everyone.