Proposition 8

OK I have to chime in-
I live in northern cali- a 5th generation san franciscan irishman who comes from a long line of drunken, catholic, women chasing, fisticuff throwing, mean ass sons of bitches- and I myself am one of them but..
I work worth people in committed straight relationships- I work with people in committed gay relationships I hear their bitches and complaints about their significant others every damn day- sounds the same to me. Everyones got the same problems: your wifey gets sick you take of them blah blah blah
who gives a damn if people want to be as happy as they want to be?
right to persuit of happiness and all that?
Really- don't we have bigger shit to worry about than if someone wants the right that when their partner dies they have a right to their life insurance policy without getting tied down in court?
Just saying- why do we have to take rights away from people and amend our constitution- don't we have bigger things to focus on such as people that want to do harm to each other?

Think of it this way- what if Homosexuality was the norm and they told you that the love you feel for your love one was wrong and somehow immoral/illegal how would you feel/ what would you do? Get to know people living ways you don't understand and if you have any kind of empathy you'll better yourself and your children for it.

that's my $.02
cheers

Quote:

Originally posted by Great_Schlep

I keep reading about gay "culture". Forgive me if I'm wrong, but isn't being gay simply a sexual preference? Other then a sexual preference with a person of the same sex, where, oh where is the "culture"? How does a sexual preference relegate you into a different "culture"? Yes, please respond.

I agree with that. Gay means loving someone with your same sex, not a thing more.
of course, being social and taxonomy enjoying beings, a lot of extra characteristics that derived into something we call the gay culture. But I think it is important to rule all of that out when dealing with subjects like these and build your ideas from scratch.

And calling it a deviation is in my opinion a gross mistake.
Just as having blue eyes is not a deviation from black eyes, homosexuality is not a deviation. Might be an "ocurrence" or a possibility but don't call it a deviation cause it is impossible to get rid of the negativity ot the term.
i am not sure I subscribe to the idea behind homosexuality being a physical thing.
I think physical reason are always a dangerous thing. But again, I am not sure, most gay people i ve talked to or read about say they were just born that way. To me that is not a true reason. I used to be able to smell things when I was a baby kid but havent been able to since I am old enough to rememberso if it was jst me, i could say i was born that way, my parents, n the other hand disagree.

Quote:

Originally posted by sugarpie26

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I respect the fact that you have your opinion and I have mine...I know we're never going to agree. In all honesty, if we were face to face, I would never be able to have a discussion with you like this because I'd back off. So in a very frustrating way (lol) this is enlightening. I'm never gonna "bash" you for you opinions, I may curse you under my breath, but you have every right to be passionate about something as I do. If I truely want to be an equal...then I have to treat you as one too.

One thing you have to understand is if we could go back in time and truely make everyone equal, then that would mean no discrimination, no fear, no parents disowning you. So yeah I would be behind that 100% if it could happen. It can't though...so I'm gonna make damn sure that my voice is heard, that I'm not treated like someone who doesn't matter.

I agree it is enlightening for me too. I am not against gay people I just think marriage should be sacred and should be between a man and a woman. I think you should get all the legal benefits like access to healthcare and right to be contact person, or in the room with them, ability to transfer wealth. The two things I am against, are gays calling it marriage, and getting tax breaks for being married or unioned or whatever. That means the government supports it, which I dont think it should

Quote:

Originally posted by thegame14

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I agree it is enlightening for me too. I am not against gay people I just think marriage should be sacred and should be between a man and a woman. I think you should get all the legal benefits like access to healthcare and right to be contact person, or in the room with them, ability to transfer wealth. The two things I am against, are gays calling it marriage, and getting tax breaks for being married or unioned or whatever. That means the government supports it, which I dont think it should

all cool, thegame, we respect each other

until I reach your last sentence.
to you, government should not support homosexuality and yet you say you dont have anything against gay people?

Let's agree on some "universally accepted" things the Gov should not support:
-crime
-unfair commercial practices
-terrorism
-child abuse

I think we can all agree on those 4. and by that same line we can agree that we dont like pedophiles, scammers, rapist or terrorists.

i think it can be hard to find an activity you think should not be supported and yet support or "not have anything against" people who actively and consciously do that activity.

Why should the gov not support homosexuality? you think homosexuality is wrong and all homosexuals are deviated?
There is a religious answer to this, which i expect (and support, defend, respect) you to give (if i wasn't against WBW rules ) but unless you don't think the separation of church and state is a good idea, the religious beliefs cannot truly answer my question.
Why the GOV should not support / should condemn a private loving practice between consenting adults?

I dont want the govt to support it because I pay taxes and dont support it. And to use the logic of Ellen, if the govt supports it and I dont, I should stop paying my taxes...

i see your point to some extent but i still cannot agree because what it would mean to support it.

My country is a relatively poor country. Yet we spend a lot of public money to support football. I dont like football and I would prefer if my gov used that money for something else (new schools, book,s doctors, etc.). In this case, I think we both use the same logic and can support each other.

But supporting gay marriage, besides the religious aspecs which we already covered (I did at least ) is not really that expensive:
the tax cuts could be somewhat significant
I dont like to go into the numbers game so I will keep it lexical and not mathematical :P
In a country that spends billion in a war to protect civil liberties, denying a civil liberties because it could mean 7% of the population will have a small tax deduction is not a strong enough reason.

I dont think ANY proud US citizen will answer yes to this question:
- do you agree the government should take away a civil liberty / a civil right because of economical reasons?

I have to admit, I am somewhat surprised by the results of the poll. I honestly expected to see results closer to 50-50, or perhaps even a slight lead for the "against" side. While this is by no means a scientific poll, it gives me hope. Thanks to everone who has voted...both sides. And if you haven't voted yet...please do.

Quote:

Originally posted by sugarpie26

I have to admit, I am somewhat surprised by the results of the poll. I honestly expected to see results closer to 50-50, or perhaps even a slight lead for the "against" side. While this is by no means a scientific poll, it gives me hope. Thanks to everone who has voted...both sides. And if you haven't voted yet...please do.

Why would you be surprised at the results? This is a porn site after all. A lot of the people against gay marriage would probably be against this site as well. Considering the number of people that like girl on girl stuff here, I would be surprised if people here were against it.

Quote:

Originally posted by sugarpie26

I have to admit, I am somewhat surprised by the results of the poll. I honestly expected to see results closer to 50-50, or perhaps even a slight lead for the "against" side. While this is by no means a scientific poll, it gives me hope. Thanks to everone who has voted...both sides. And if you haven't voted yet...please do.

Hey don't give us too much credit. We are just hoping that if same sex marriages are legal we can see more hot lipstick lesbian amateur porn on whatboyswant.

No seriously, there is no need in keeping people from being happy and IMO that is what is going on here. Homosexuals are given the burden financially (single people pay more taxes than married, and life partners aren't usually given an inheritance unless expressly written). Also, they are often unable to be with their loved one at the time of the love one's death. But the most obvious, they don't really have the right to formally recognize their relationship in the eyes of God and their family.

That's just plain horse shit.

Um to be honest i dont live in cali and if gays want to get married let them! But if im not mistaken wasn't the supreme court dission to allow the states the right to decide if it is legal or not, and if so im not sure the prop 8 will go to the supreme court... not sure if anyone addressed this but i just thought i would raise the question/thought

Quote:

Originally posted by thegame14

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I agree it is enlightening for me too. I am not against gay people I just think marriage should be sacred and should be between a man and a woman. I think you should get all the legal benefits like access to healthcare and right to be contact person, or in the room with them, ability to transfer wealth. The two things I am against, are gays calling it marriage, and getting tax breaks for being married or unioned or whatever. That means the government supports it, which I dont think it should

Why shouldn't the government 'support' gay marriage? Why are homosexuals any less worthy of citizenship and representation than you or me? Since you talk about tax breaks a lot, why shouldn't homosexual couples get tax breaks? Why should someone every bit as equal, as human, as you or me have to pay more for being a citizen of the US?

The only reason why, that I can think of, that the government shouldn't 'support' gay marriage is because your faith says it shouldn't. And that goes against the most fundamental beliefs of this country that you love so much.

It seems hypocritical to me, to champion a country so boldly as a beacon of freedom and unity, and then suggesting that that country of freedom and unity enforces a double standard based upon a religious belief that one human is worth less than another.

Quote:

Originally posted by thegame14

I dont want the govt to support it because I pay taxes and dont support it. And to use the logic of Ellen, if the govt supports it and I dont, I should stop paying my taxes...

Ellen isn't paying taxes because she isn't being represented by the government.

You are being represented, and there is no way that anyone has ever considered giving rights to homosexuals and abandoning all previous rights granted/enforced to straight couples.

Your example doesn't work.

you know there used to not be taxes...

Quote:

Originally posted by thegame14

not allowed to get into the religious part of this, but it can never be allowed, woman was made to be man's only companion, Adam and Eve, not Adam and Steve

Sounds like someone has decided not to look past his brainwashed childhood.

Quote:

Originally posted by BigDaddyJoe

you know there used to not be taxes...

There also used to not be unicorns and rainbows.

Thanks for being you, champ.

So there are unicorns and rainbows??? I knew it!

Quote:

Originally posted by Honda_X

I don't care about gay marriage...they should have the right to be as miserable as all other married couples.

i completely agree..

I took me almost 30 mins to read through all the posts, so here is my 5 cents worth

In New Zealand we allowed same sex marriages in 2004/2005. They kept some people happy by calling it a civil union but is still has all the same legal rights as a married couple and their union goes on the register of marriages and you get a "marriage certificate" , just like man/woman marriages. To be honest their wasn't a huge opposition against it , but there was still a little bit.

We don't have the problems that a lot of people thought would come with it and have been mentioned throughout this thread...
Same sex couples can adopt kids of any age (1ys through to 15yrs) - they dont get hassled much at school cause of the sex of their parents anymore than anyone else gets bullied.
People dont see them as a threat in employment anymore than the next person
And , most importantly 4 years on people aren't marrying their dogs , cats, horses or anything like that - Even though some Aussies would still have you believe all New Zealanders are sheep shaggers (but I wont get into that here)
It is just business as usual and they dont have anymore or any less rights than anyone else in a marriage or defacto relationship. And thats the way it should be.

I have two female friends who are now married through a civil union and they are not any different from me or any of my friends that are in a male/female relationship. It doesn't make them a monster just because of their sexuality.
(As a side note their wedding was great, especially with the 5 course meal and the large amount of free booze)

Hopefully this will calm some peoples nerves a little about the whole subject

Quote:

Originally posted by bluewatertwo

They kept some people happy by calling it a civil union but is still has all the same legal rights as a married couple and their union goes on the register of marriages and you get a "marriage certificate" , just like man/woman marriages.

So are gay couples in New Zealand joined by "marriage" or "civil union"? If it's called a "civil union" then it's the same thing that California already had. All Prop 8 does is clarify that "marriage" is a union between a man and a woman. Prop 8 makes no attempt to undo any laws, rights, or protections for gay couples that CA already had.

Quote:

Originally posted by brownell

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So are gay couples in New Zealand joined by "marriage" or "civil union"? If it's called a "civil union" then it's the same thing that California already had. All Prop 8 does is clarify that "marriage" is a union between a man and a woman. Prop 8 makes no attempt to undo any laws, rights, or protections for gay couples that CA already had.

If you get down to the technical side of the civil union law ... The difference between the two - marriage vs civil union - is the naming of the of the ceremony. For a man/woman couple then it is a marriage ceremony and for same sex couples it is a civil union ceremony. And that is really the only difference. The ceremonies are exactly the same, conducted by wedding celebrants other than do you blah blah take blah blah to be your lawfully wedded partner , and at the end they say I now pronounce you wedded partners a opposed to husband and wife.

As I said above it still has all the same legal rights of a man/woman marriage (i.e one can take the others surname, you have to get a divorce to end it etc)

My understanding of Prop 8 (and it probably is a misguided understanding) was that it removed the abilty to be registered as a "married or unioned" couple and have the same legal rights as man/woman marriages do.