Don't ask, don't tell

Once again the point is missed that gays are already serving in the military. DADT just made them hide that fact. If we don't allow gays to serve openly because the bigits have a problem with it, then we lose. Do we also go back to not allowing blacks to serve, because I'm sure some bigots still have problems with that?

I dont care if they serve or not, as long as it doesnt move them any closer to marriage, we need to stand up and fight for familes and traditional values.

I think everyone who serves in the military is already well aware that there are gays who are serving. To be honest most of us could care less as long as like everyone else they do their job and don't whine too much about it. My only issue with it is just the timing of the repeal. Could you pick a better time to do it than while we have 150,000 troops forward deployed. Stress breads stupidity, ignorance the same thing. Plug those two together and it may get a tad bit ugly.

they problem with gay people is the same as any other minority, they want they best of both worlds, you want to be treated like you arent gay, then fine dont act gay, drop the entire gay culture, no lips, no exentricities, no rainbows, no anything that would make you different from a straight person, and you can be treated the same, but if you want to act differently, expect and accept to be treated differently, end of story, end of argument.

no pis= no lisps. drop the entire gay culture any anything not accepted as normal.... if you cant accept that, then accept that fact that you are different and will be treated as being different

Game, are you saying that everyone should then drop everything that makes them different or unique? Should an Irish American no longer be allowed to fly the Irish flag, because everyone isn't Irish? Should someone from Boston have to change their speech to sound exactly like yours because they have an accent from an area other than yours? Should men and women start dressing the same so as not to be different from one another? Should someone of the Buddhist faith stop practicing their beliefs because it's not the most commonly practiced religion? Are you not proud to be of a certain nationality, and proud to show that off? Can you not appreciate that people from different regions have different accents? Can you not understand that people want to apply their religious beliefs?

Also. Not all gay people are shouting from the rooftops. Not all gay people have lisps, not all gay people are walking out of the homes garnered from head to toe in rainbows. Not all gay men are effeminate and not all gay women are butch. I bet you have been acquaintances with numbers upon numbers of gay people and you haven't even known it.

You are saying that there are gay people and there are straight people as if that is the only way to describe a person. Gay and straight are not the only two identities in this world. Everyone likes to be able to express who they are. Being gay is not choice, just as being of German descent is not a choice, just as being black, white, Hispanic, or Asian is not a choice. Someone should not have to hide who they are in order to make everyone else around them comfortable. Just as you are not hiding that you are a homophobic person, I should not have to hide that I identify as queer.

Any minority should be treated just as the majority. Just because the majority of Americans are white, does not mean that they are superior to those who are not. Whatever happened to "All Men Are Created Equal"?


And as SugarPie has pointed out a number of times, DADT is NOT questioning whether or not it is alright to be gay, nor is it saying that gays are now all of a sudden allowed to serve in our military. It is NOT saying that gays are now allowed to stand on the tables in the mess halls swinging a rainbow flag singing about being gay, nor does it allow gay soldiers to start hitting on everyone in their site. It is NOT giving gay soldiers the right to act any different than their straight counterparts. DADT is simply legislation stating that you can not be kicked out of the military for being gay.

In the work force, people can not be fired because of a discrimination against their gender, race, or sexual identity. The individual who is fired because one of these reasons could sue their former employer. So why should the military be any different?

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

That's kind of a silly line of argument anyway.

I'll never be black or Muslim, but that doesn't mean I shouldn't have an opinion on whether they should be discriminated against.

Umm, ok ... so I was wrong to assume that she is MORE concerned because some day she might have to live here?

I wasn't saying that a possible move here was her ONLY reason to be concerned about our "inhumane" ways in this country.

@Game - Tell me...how exactly do I "act gay"? So because I occasionally wear a rainbow bracelet when I go out, so that straight guys know not to hit on me, that's acting gay? How about when I repeatedly tell them that I'm not interested in dancing with them because I'm gay, only to hear back "but you don't look gay". Or how about when I overhear them snickering and talking to their friends about how they'd "turn me straight"?

As Lucy said, not everyone is a gay right activist, not every gay person flys the rainbow flag everyday. Besides, the reason there is activism is because there are still injustices. Give us the same rights as everyone else and then there won't be reasons to be political. Things like Pride will still happen though, just like celebrations for other cultures and what not go on. Pride used to be more of a time to protest, now it's more of a celebration and a time to show the world that we aren't ashamed of who we are, and that we aren't going away....it's also a time to show people who are struggling with their sexuality that they are not alone. If you don't like it, don't attend. Just as if you don't like celebrating Irish history, you wouldn't go to an Irish street festival.

Not to speak for thegame, but if someone doesn't "act gay", then DADT works for everyone, right? But that's not the point is it? It isn't enough to be left alone ... gays demand that everyone else changes their opinion and accept homosexuality as the new "normal".

BTW, I'm not particularly fond of public ethnic demonstrations either. If being Irish is so great, why aren't you having your party in Ireland?

if you want equal rights, then drop everything that makes you different. If you want to remain different and have your own unique culture, then do ask to be equal. THat is the problem, you want to be different and unique but equal rights, that is the best of both worlds. That is like an illegal immigrant who wants to come to the US for all the benefits, but still keep their native foreign culture. You dont get the best of both, you get one or the other. And that is the problem with minorities, they want all the benefits of being a minority but also the benefits of the majority. You dont get to have both, choose one.

being in the military, i have no qualms over this. my basic training roommate was gay, and i had no idea. Not only did he not "act" gay, but he never hit on me. does being gay have anything to do with the willingness of that person to put his life on the line for a fellow servicemember? no. When the shit hits the fan in a firefight, you need as many bodies as you can count on. distrusting someone because of their sexual preference would be the last thing on my mind in that case.

it is like here in the US you have puerto ricans or any hispanic that come here, become citizens to "get a better life" but then talk spanish, fly spanish flags and want to act like they did back home, you come here and assimilate and be an american and get the benefits of being american or stay back in puerto rico, but you dont come here and get our benefits and keep your foreign culture. You cant have the best of both and that is what all minorities want, they want the best of both worlds, but of course they dont see it that way.

Bottom line, whatever your minority, you dont get to act like the minority and ask to be treated equally, act like them majority and then you will be treated equally, not the other way around

i love the "family values" argument though, i know several gay women who have a wonderful family, and two gay men who have an adopted girl and boy. they are the ones who are concerned about a truly decent upbringing for their children, not so for many of the straight families i know. its a facade and a poor excuse for an argument. caring for others is a human trait, not a gay or straight issue.

so the few people you know makes the rule? That is intellgient. How about the studies that prove that if you are raised in an environment with gay parents, the children are morely likely to be gay then children raised by straight parents, just like children from divorced parents are more likely to get divorced. but of course a gay person would think that having more gay people is a good thing.......

Quote:

Originally posted by thegame14

so the few people you know makes the rule? That is intellgient. How about the studies that prove that if you are raised in an environment with gay parents, the children are morely likely to be gay then children raised by straight parents, just like children from divorced parents are more likely to get divorced. but of course a gay person would think that having more gay people is a good thing.......

Quote:

Originally posted by American Academy Of Child & Adolescent Psychiatry

Current research shows that children with gay and lesbian parents do not differ from children with heterosexual parents in their emotional development or in their relationships with peers and adults. It is the quality of the parent/child relationship and not the parents sexual orientation that has an effect on a child's development. Contrary to popular belief, children of lesbian, gay, or transgender parents:

-Are not more likely to be gay than children with heterosexual parents.
-Are not more likely to be sexually abused.
-Do not show differences in whether they think of themselves as male or female (gender identity).
-Do not show differences in their male and female behaviors (gender role behavior).

http://www.aacap.org/cs/root/facts_for_families/children_with_lesbian_gay_bisexual_and_transgender_parents

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from, but you're wrong. There is no link between gay parents and gay children, as this 2006 study shows.

Also, your statement about coming to America and not bringing your own culture is the most ridiculous thing I've ever heard. If it wasn't for your ancestors bringing their culture, you'd be speaking Apache and be living in a teepee, so don't give me that argument. Can you honestly say that you've never done anything that is considered traditional? Never had a traditional meal, never celebrated an event specific to your culture? I don't believe that for a second. North America is made up of cultures and differences from around the world, thats how it is. And while being gay isn't a culture, it is a difference. You may not like it, and thats fine, you don't have to celebrate Pride with me. Just like you don't have to celebrate St. Patrick's Day if you don't want to.

the end of the argument is this, would you give up everything that makes being gay different and unique in order to be treated the same. If you want to keep what makes you unique and be treated the same, you are a hypocrite.

Would yo give up everything unique about being gay, and the entire gay culture for equal treatment? If not you are a hyprocrite and greedy, cause that means that you want to be treated equally while remainding different. So either be different and be treated differently or be the same and be treated the same....

Define what you mean by being different? Would I quit telling people that I'm gay? No, because thats part of who I am, and being that all gay people aren't green, a lot of times the only way people know I'm gay is because I tell them. I wish I didn't have to, I wish people could just tell, but they can't. Would I quit wearing a rainbow bracelet, again no, for the same reason.

Now its time for you to answer some of my questions. You're very good at making broad statements and asking questions, but you never answer mine. Have you given up your entire heritage to "conform"? Have you ever celebrated a holiday or event that is part of your heritage? Or really I could go as far as say ANY holiday or event that others don't. Don't give me this crap about being different? What is different? Anyone who isn't the same as you? If thats the case then everyone is different.

you give up everything that is different, no lisps, no gay culture, no gay clubs, no rainbow anything, give up the artisy culture, anything and everything about being gay that makes you different. You cant be different but then claim you want to be the same. If you want to be treated the same, act the same. Be the same as any non gay female, but just have a different preference in privacy, but anything you do publically would be the same as a straight woman.

I dont go around waving an italian flag or demanding that people here speak italian like all the spanish people who come here do. I dont celebrate any Italian holidays, I am american so I celebrate everything american.

If you want to be treated the same and straight people, be no different from them in ANY way other than preferring a woman in the pirvacy of your own home, but everything else you do should not distinguish you from a straight woman. If all gay people did that, people would have no problem with it, the fact that you go out of your way to be different is the problem, you go out of your way to be different, but then hypocritically claim, all you want is to be treated the same. You want to be treated the same, act the same, period

Quote:

Originally posted by thegame14

you give up everything that is different, no lisps, no gay culture, no gay clubs, no rainbow anything, give up the artisy culture, anything and everything about being gay that makes you different. You cant be different but then claim you want to be the same. If you want to be treated the same, act the same. Be the same as any non gay female, but just have a different preference in privacy, but anything you do publically would be the same as a straight woman.

Thats ridiculous. What if I was a straight female artist? Thats artsy? Is that different? What if I go to a women's only gym? Thats different too. What if I go to a straight club and its ladies night? I guess thats different again huh?

I don't think I am different than any straight female other than the fact the I'm attracted to other women, and occasionally tell people that I'm gay because people assume that I'm straight.