Don't ask, don't tell

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Originally posted by 888SPO

OMG.....the very conceit of this comment !

Sure. They sign up to look at your big long fat dick.

Something tells me that they don't risk their life for that, but I could be wrong.

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Not all of them but I bet there's probably a quite few, I just can't imagine any Carson Kresley types signing up for that kind of situation unless there's a penis or something involved.

Quote:

Originally posted by 2stroke

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Not all of them but I bet there's probably a quite few, I just can't imagine any Carson Kresley types signing up for that kind of situation unless there's a penis or something involved.

Certain types of people are going to sign up, and others aren't. But be serious...why would a gay guy (or girl) sign up just to look at genitalia? It's an absurd statement. I don't need the army to look at boobies and vag, there are easier and safer ways to meet people. As for saying that's maybe not the main reason they joined, but a side benefit, that too is crazy. They join, just like any straight person, to serve their country. Saying they're there to have sex is like saying the straight guys are there to have sex with the straight women recruits...it's ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally posted by Notech

I voted Yes.
Since they let women in combat, why not let everyone in ? Women in the line of fire caused me more cause for thought than this issue.

They do not let women in combat.
They let women go on patrols in non combat MOS's and if they get attacked then they will see combat but women are not allowed to have combat MOS's like 11b or 11c. As a matter of fact, I was an Army Ranger and we didn't even allow women in our Battalion.

Also, gays have been allowed in the military for a long time now. Which is how you got the phrase "Don't ask, don't tell". They just weren't allowed to go around acting gay and now they can, which I'm glad I'm out now because I bet this is going to cause a lot of discomfort and fighting in the showers. They may as well make the showers all co-ed now to.

Can't see what issue there is regarding being a good soldier and your sexual preferences. I was concerned about women being allowed into the army but that was old-fashioned social conditioning, and my views have changed since then.

Let me help you with your problem.

You should never have to marry someone of the same sex. Or serve in the military.

This should alleviate some of the anguish that you are feeling.

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Originally posted by thegame14

I dont care if they want to serve, but marriage is absolutely out of the question and I think they will just try to use this to say if we can serve why cant we get married, so anything that puts gays closer to marriage, I vote no. Marriage is not even a discussion, it is off the table and can never happen.

I'm working on a super-long reply to a bunch of the bullshit in this thread, but it's not done and I'm not coherent enough to finish it tonight, but I saw this and, while I generally agree with 888SPO's thoughts in this thread, I might disagree with one point here...

Quote:

Originally posted by 888SPO

Let me help you with your problem.

You should never have to marry someone of the same sex. Or serve in the military.

On the first, I agree. On the second, well, I'm not so sure about.

As a general ideological tenet, I'd typically argue that nobody should be forced to serve in the military. However, I don't like the externalities which accompany such a policy. When you have an entirely volunteer military, the demographics that make up said military are not going to include the most affluent and politically well-connected groups of people, and thus, those who are making decisions as to where and when to send soldiers are insulated from the consequences of those actions. I can pretty much guarantee you that if upper-middle class children were being drafted into the military to serve in the continuing 10 year war that is the clusterfuck in the Middle East, you'd see university protests, marches in the streets, hawkish politicians losing in droves and a general heightened sense of political responsibility on the part of policymakers instead of the general malaise and consequences-be-damned attitudes that are currently undertaken.




Also, to whomever thinks gays will join the military because they can look at the odd nude person in the company shower, just think about how ridiculous that is. I like cute chicks as much as the next guy, but I'm pretty sure I'd never, ever sign away years of my life, almost all my decision making autonomy, my independence, and expose myself to the possibility of having to go kill people and perhaps even get killed or maimed myself because there might be a couple cute chicks there. Hell, I won't even go into a shitty bar, even if I KNOW there are hot chicks there. It's just not one of the perks which entices a person to enlist.

I agree with that bottom part, I don't know what that person was thinking.

But think about it this way, if you were showering or sharing sleeping quarters with a few hot chicks, would you find it hard not to stare or even take a peek once in a while?

I know I have a hard enough time not staring at cleavage when a girl's got it hanging out there for the world to see. So until the women in the military are comfortable with showering with men then I think it's completely exceptable for the men to be uncomfortable with showering with gay men. So call it homophobic or whatever you want but I think it's about the comfort level, just the same as women wouldn't want straight men to have the opportunity to gawk at their naked bodies.

Just want to clear up a few things, when I say cock or penis in that context I am referring to other males. I mean that maybe a lot of them join not just to fight for their country which would be their number one priority but also, in a sublime way, to get fresh with their choice out of the abundance of other males and take advantage of those high stress situations, to fullfil their lifelong desires.. not necessarily to stare at a dick or a cunt in the shower. Since it is a lifestyle type thing kind of like being trapped on an island with a heap of hot chicks but without the blood, sweat and tears.

Anyways I stand by my original comment which I wrote when I was sober, just added a few things.

Quote:

Originally posted by 2stroke

Gender/sexuality shouldn't be a big deal. They are there to fight, not to make relationships and fornicate. So I can't really see anything wrong with the don't ask don't tell policy. Also I'm guessing it has been that way since time began throughout the world wars, Vietnam and all the others so why is there a need to change.
Homosexuals may continue to contribute to society the same way heterosexuals do, keep their sexual tendencies and thoughts to themselves like everyone else. Only difference I guess is they can't have a real family, hence my stand on gay marriage.. it's just not natural, these type of things are gradually messing up the world and the way ordinary people think. This is nobodys fault it's just the way it is, so live with it.

You say it's ok for gays to serve providing they keep their tendencies and thought to themselves, just like everyone else does.

My question to you is...Does every straight soldier keep their sexual tendencies and thoughts to themselves? I don't believe for a second they do. I picture a group of soldiers talking about the hot chick at the mess hall, or the big tits on such and such girl. So don't tell me they keep their thoughts to themselves. The gay soldier can't say anything under DADT, because the second he says anything about some hot guy (or girl if we're talking about a female soldier) he'll be discharged.

As for your last comment about gay marriage slowly messing up the world, and not being natural...well that's just offensive. Is a 60% divorce rate natural? How about spousal and/or child abuse? Because this things are almost non existent in gay marriages, but rampant in straight marriage.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

You say it's ok for gays to serve providing they keep their tendencies and thought to themselves, just like everyone else does.

My question to you is...Does every straight soldier keep their sexual tendencies and thoughts to themselves? I don't believe for a second they do. I picture a group of soldiers talking about the hot chick at the mess hall, or the big tits on such and such girl. So don't tell me they keep their thoughts to themselves. The gay soldier can't say anything under DADT, because the second he says anything about some hot guy (or girl if we're talking about a female soldier) he'll be discharged.

As for your last comment about gay marriage slowly messing up the world, and not being natural...well that's just offensive. Is a 60% divorce rate natural? How about spousal and/or child abuse? Because this things are almost non existent in gay marriages, but rampant in straight marriage.

They will talk about it because that's what men do when they are with other men, there is no awkwardness, it is normal. If there are woman around they will keep that subject of banter to themselves out of respect for the woman.

As for the gay soldier venting his thoughts about Private Wilsons big hairy balls and toned ass, well it should be kept to himself out of respect for the other men as with the heteros. He knows what he is signing up for and as a homo he should know that he is different and accept that.

Well the institution of marriage has been fucked for years, why not let the gays marry.. maybe they can save it

Quote:

Originally posted by 2stroke

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They will talk about it because that's what men do when they are with other men, there is no awkwardness, it is normal.

Welcome to the new normal. Here's hoping that our troops are better at adapting and overcoming than some of their civilian counterparts.

Of course straight guy soilders are going to talk about women, that's what guys do. But do you really expect the gay male soldier to pipe in (as the other guys are talking about tits and pussy) about how hot that guy is? It's not gonna happen. Believe me that coming out is hard enough to do with your friends and family, to do it around a bunch of guys that traditionally won't support you...well...I can't see many if any doing it. What the repeal of DADT does, is protects that one solider who somehow it's found out that he or she is gay.

As for what Tarquin says. I can't wait for the day that this is the new normal, but sadly I know that it won't happen in my lifetime. Why is it such a big deal who I sleep with?

I wonder if the rest of the the world cared what the United States military's policy on gays was when my father landed at Normandy. He never spoke much of the the battle but I'm sure he would had mentioned the protesters that were on the beach demonstrating against the way the U.S. military operates.

I don't think it's a big deal who you sleep with and I don't think too many people at all care about women being gay. It's just guys that can be disturbing and I don't even care what they do behind closed doors. I would just feel as uncomfortable showering and getting naked in front of them as you would with a bunch of straight guys that you're not interested in.

Not quite sure what you're getting at with the whole talking about tits thing but if it's that gays should have the right to do that to then I agree but it has to be amongst themselves. We all know that guys sit around and talk like that with themselves but in the military if they were to be overheard by a female there could be some serious consequences. Women get offended by that talk and they seek punishment when they hear it so gay men would have to be careful they didn't talk like that around straight men just the same as straight men can't do it around females.

Quote:

Originally posted by kowman

I wonder if the rest of the the world cared what the United States military's policy on gays was when my father landed at Normandy. He never spoke much of the the battle but I'm sure he would had mentioned the protesters that were on the beach demonstrating against the way the U.S. military operates.

When your father landed on the beach at Normandy the word gay meant something else entirely, so I doubt we'd be having this conversation. The US military is the mightiest armed forces now with the collapse of the Solviet Union, so people look at them to be innovators, they look at them to lead an example. Also, the US is [ithe home of the free [/i] right? Right or wrong, people outside of the US still look at it as the country where anyone can become anything they want, and where opeertunity is unlimited. So with that image, there comes certain expectations. Over time, expectations evolve and start to become more and more the will of a people. Don't hate that people can protest; while you might not agree with them, ebrace the fact that in your country they're allowed to protest.

Quote:

Originally posted by Thamuz

I don't think too many people at all care about women being gay. It's just guys that can be disturbing and I don't even care what they do behind closed doors.

Why the double standard? Why is it ok for women to be gay, but not men? Is it becasue two women together is 'hot'? Maybe you should ask some straight women...maybe they don't have a problem with gay guys. I'm not trying to start an argument, I know that its way easier for a woman to come out than a guy, as a gay woman I haven't been concerned that I was going to be attacked and beeten to death because I'm gay, I don't hear nearly as many hateful comments, I'm ussually not the brunt end of jokes. I'm not saying that I haven't faced discrimination before, but certainly not to the extent some of my gay male friends have.

Quote:

Originally posted by Thamuz

Not quite sure what you're getting at with the whole talking about tits thing but if it's that gays should have the right to do that to then I agree but it has to be amongst themselves. We all know that guys sit around and talk like that with themselves but in the military if they were to be overheard by a female there could be some serious consequences. Women get offended by that talk and they seek punishment when they hear it so gay men would have to be careful they didn't talk like that around straight men just the same as straight men can't do it around females.

All I was trying to say is that straight guys in the military can sit around and talk about women, pretty much with no consequence, where IF a gay guy talked about another guy, under DADT he'd likely be discharged. I don't think with the repeal gay guys are going to start openly talking about men and their sex life. All the repeal does, is if somehow its found out that they are gay, they can't be discharged.

What people don't seem to realize is that I seriously doubt the repeal is going to change the surface of the military. Gays served before DADT, they are going to serve after DADT, they aren't going to hit on other members of the same sex, you aren't going to find 2 guys or girls having sex in the showers, when your sitting around at the mess hall, the gay guy beside you isn't going to comment about how nice your ass looks. Don't think for a second that the repeal of DADT protects gays from other soldiers, because it doesn't. If a gay guy comes out to his fellow soldiers, its likely that things will still go bad and be "handled" by his fellow soldiers. Basically what I'm saying is that a gay guy especially would be crazy to come out to his fellow soldiers.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Why the double standard? Why is it ok for women to be gay, but not men? Is it becasue two women together is 'hot'? Maybe you should ask some straight women...maybe they don't have a problem with gay guys. I'm not trying to start an argument, I know that its way easier for a woman to come out than a guy, as a gay woman I haven't been concerned that I was going to be attacked and beeten to death because I'm gay, I don't hear nearly as many hateful comments, I'm ussually not the brunt end of jokes. I'm not saying that I haven't faced discrimination before, but certainly not to the extent some of my gay male friends have.

I'm not sure why the double standard is there. I didn't create it but I am apart of it just like the rest of the world. I guess I could assume it's because like you implied, if a gay guy is inappropriate, straight guys are much more likely to beat the shit out of him, whereas women wouldn't. I'm sure you're right... straight women probably don't have as much of a problem with gay men as straight men do. So I guess the double stand is there because straight men have a problem with gay men and neither straight men nor straight women have a problem with gay women.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

As for what Tarquin says. I can't wait for the day that this is the new normal, but sadly I know that it won't happen in my lifetime.

You're wrong.

In 1946, blacks were fully integrated into the military. By 1960, less than 20 years later, it was "the new normal" and most soldiers couldn't fathom it being any other way.

During WWII, over 350,000 women served in the military and by 1948 they were omni-present in the military, a transition that took less than 10 years.

By 1975 women were allowed to join the Academies.

By the late 80s, women were fully integrated into most combat roles.

In 1992 I enlisted in the military to serve in Desert Storm. I was a Special Forces combat unit, and there were women - several of them - in my unit. When we got deployed, they went with. When we were in combat patrols, they were too. Many of my sergeants were female, and they did just fine.

This is also about the time we had "don't ask, don't tell."

While it was an annoyance to some, most of us didn't give two shits. It's now 2011, and gays are allowed to openly serve in the military.

10 years from now it will be ancient history.

Don't sell the soldiers short. They understand, they're capable of adapting, and they're going to do so far more quickly than the civilians will.

You're wrong Sugarpie. It'll happen within your lifetime. Whether or not our society catches up to the military is another matter, but the military... In 10 years, this will be ancient history to them.

This is the new normal. Right here, right now. The military - the soldiers - are far more capable than people give them credit for. This IS the new normal - or will be within a few years, and you most certainly will be alive to see it.

I hope your right Tarquin, and maybe the military will accept gays into the fold, but I guess what I was trying to say is I don't think gays will be fully accepted into society as a whole in my lifetime. And when I mean accepted, I mean no discrimination, no jokes, no pointing fingers, no name calling, no gay bashing. I also mean being able to get legally married, raise a family, go to church, etc. I don't think blacks have been fully accepted into society yet, so we've got a long way to go before gays are.

Ok...end depressing rant.

Thanks for the summary of some wonderful advances in our society as highlighted by the armed forces. It really is a different world than the one of our fathers and the challenges just keep coming.

I, for one, appreciate your service and the open mindedness that you represent here.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

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You're wrong.
In 1946, blacks were fully integrated into the military. By 1960, less than 20 years later, it was "the new normal" and most soldiers couldn't fathom it being any other way.

During WWII, over 350,000 women served in the military and by 1948 they were omni-present in the military, a transition that took less than 10 years.

By 1975 women were allowed to join the Academies.

By the late 80s, women were fully integrated into most combat roles.

In 1992 I enlisted in the military to serve in Desert Storm. I was a Special Forces combat unit, and there were women - several of them - in my unit. When we got deployed, they went with. When we were in combat patrols, they were too. Many of my sergeants were female, and they did just fine.

This is also about the time we had "don't ask, don't tell."

While it was an annoyance to some, most of us didn't give two shits. It's now 2011, and gays are allowed to openly serve in the military.

10 years from now it will be ancient history.

Don't sell the soldiers short. They understand, they're capable of adapting, and they're going to do so far more quickly than the civilians will.

You're wrong Sugarpie. It'll happen within your lifetime. Whether or not our society catches up to the military is another matter, but the military... In 10 years, this will be ancient history to them.

This is the new normal. Right here, right now. The military - the soldiers - are far more capable than people give them credit for. This IS the new normal - or will be within a few years, and you most certainly will be alive to see it.

Sounds like you are losing traction on this subject Thamuz. Frankly I would be interested in how many women have applied for those units. Women don't have some particular strengths that men do ( notably body strength) but does every body need to lift a telephone pole and run along the beach with it ?

No matter. It will be interesting to see how all of these things work out in the field without the bozo influence and yapping of congress.

Quote:

Originally posted by Thamuz

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Ok I believe that women are in special forces units, as a matter of fact I've seen it myself so I know it's true. I believe they even went on patrols with you but did they do actual raid type missions with you? or go out and do anything where you were the ones attacking? I doubt it. I've been to the special forces selection course SFAS and women are not allowed there. While women are allowed in the unit, they are not allowed on an actual SF team.

Please oh please never let this change!
Sorry but elite groups like Rangers, Navy Seals, and SF will suffer if they ever accept women. I think they know this because everyone sees how much more relaxed they had to make the military to be able to accept women and how they had to give them a handicap for the physical fitness standards.