Gun Control

and i countered with proof of my own. a study from Harvard saying there is NO correlation between gun control and crime rates. and others stating from government numbers that states with higher gun ownership have less crime.

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Originally posted by ctrd

Of course the Americans need to protect their 2nd Amendment Rights - if they didn't have guns, the King of England could just walk in here any time he wants, and start shoving them around.

God save the Queen!

Here's an idea. Allow everybody over the age of 18 to conceal and carry that can legally do so and can pass a psych eval as well as a training course. Allow people to carry in every environment, including schools, without limitations except state and federal gov't buildings. You will see a drastic reduction of murder rate as well as a lower head count on those that are looking to mass murder.

Quote:

Originally posted by johnandyasmin

Here's an idea. Allow everybody over the age of 18 to conceal and carry that can legally do so and can pass a psych eval as well as a training course. Allow people to carry in every environment, including schools, without limitations except state and federal gov't buildings. You will see a drastic reduction of murder rate as well as a lower head count on those that are looking to mass murder.

Except psych eval would have to be done regularly because people state of mind change.

Here's another idea: Allow all the psychos to obtain guns and we'd reduce the population pretty fast.. ..oh wait..

In a country as violent as the US ?

Plan A - Come and drive in Los Angeles traffic and then tell me you want these people armed.

If that is unconvincing, try Plan B.

Plan B - Drive though Compton where everyone is already armed and dangeous, and report back ( if possible) on how happy everyone is with that situation.

For gun owners the answer to everything is more guns. Hey...you might actually love it in Compton.

Quote:

Originally posted by johnandyasmin

Here's an idea. Allow everybody over the age of 18 to conceal and carry that can legally do so and can pass a psych eval as well as a training course. Allow people to carry in every environment, including schools, without limitations except state and federal gov't buildings. You will see a drastic reduction of murder rate as well as a lower head count on those that are looking to mass murder.

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

and i countered with proof of my own. a study from Harvard saying there is NO correlation between gun control and crime rates. and others stating from government numbers that states with higher gun ownership have less crime.

Yeah, you countered with some random blog post, something on "datamasher" which the guy interprets wrong, and that link from the ACRU. Unfortunately the ACRU, they lied to you. The Harvard Journal of Law & Public Policy is actually not a peer-reviewed journal, but a conservative Law Review put out by right-wing Harvard students. That's right, it was edited and approved by a group of conservative students. The "study" wasn't reviewed or fact checked by experts in the field, as is the procedure for peer-review. We know this because there's a huge, obvious, glaring error in the thing. They list the homicide rate for Luxembourg, in 2002, at 9.1 per 100,000 people. That's a huge mistake. It's actually 0.90 per 100,000.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/117264314#post5

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But Kates and Mauser raise the bar by simply using false data. It makes propagandizing so much easier! As has been pointed out on this board before, the authors quote the homicide rate of Luxembourg as 9.01/100K. Of course, as anyone even marginally knowledgeable about international crime statistics knows, this is completely out of the question, unless there were some kind of anomalous mass killing in that year. It is common knowledge that the only first-world nation with a homicide rate even close to that is the USA (which, not coincidentally, has far higher gun ownership than any other first-world nation).

What happened was there was a decimal point error: the Luxembourg homicide rate is actually 0.9/100K. Now, if this was some number hidden away in some table, maybe it wouldn't matter much. But it's not: they refer directly to this supposedly sky-high homicide rate of Luxembourg in the text, and they even highlight the number in Table 2. And with good reason: if that actually were the homicide rate of Luxembourg, then it would deserve to be highlighted.

This leaves us with the standard two possibilities for pro-gunner propaganda:
1) (Dishonesty) Kates and Mauser knew the number was bad, but chose to highlight it anyway, perhaps because it felt so good, for once, to have a statistic that didn't have to be further manipulated in any way in order to support their case.
2) (Incompetence) Kates and Mauser really didn't double check the number despite the fact that even an amateur would instantly be able to spot this as way out of line with reality.

So, you know, good try, but better luck next time.

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Finally, and as if to prove the bumper sticker correct - that "gun don't kill people, people do" - the study also shows that Russia's murder rate is four times higher than the U.S. and more than 20 times higher than Norway. This, in a country that practically eradicated private gun ownership over the course of decades of totalitarian rule and police state methods of suppression. Needless to say, very few Russian murders involve guns.

Yeah, I'm sure that living in an oppressed society with high inequality and poverty wasn't a more important factor than the lack of guns.

Quote:

Originally posted by F1098

In a country as violent as the US ?

Plan A - Come and drive in Los Angeles traffic and then tell me you want these people armed.

If that is unconvincing, try Plan B.

Plan B - Drive though Compton ( South-Central Los Angeles, CA) where everyone is already armed and dangeous, and report back ( if possible) on how happy everyone is with that situation.

For gun owners the answer to everything is always more guns. Hey...you might actually love it in Compton.



...

It's hilarious that people from other countries that DON'T have the freedoms that we do are so quick to offer opinions of why we should give up our guns. Guess what kids? 230,000,000 gun owners didn't kill anybody in their lives. You see some psychotic moron kill somebody and you freak out... or wait, that was with a car, or a knife, or a baseball bat, or posion, or rope, or anti-freeze. Where's your bleeding heart to regulate those? Here's a thought, how about you actually educate yourself on firearm safety. Education is key. You educate yourself before driving a car, yet cars kill more people in the US than guns ever have. How often will you see criticism from other countries? You won't. So stop freaking out everytime there is a tragedy to push your political agenda. Children died. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to blame firearms because some psychotic, diaper stain decided to steal his mothers guns and go on a rampage because he was mad at the world. How about you start blaming the killer for a change? Everybody wants to start blaming anything but the one who committed the crime. This kid broke 41 laws, so guess what? LAWS AND SIGNS DO NOT PREVENT PEOPLE FROM COMMITTING CRIMES!!

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Originally posted by Raothi

It's hilarious that people from other countries that DON'T have the freedoms that we do are so quick to offer opinions of why we should give up our guns. Guess what kids? 230,000,000 gun owners didn't kill anybody in their lives. You see some psychotic moron kill somebody and you freak out... or wait, that was with a car, or a knife, or a baseball bat, or posion, or rope, or anti-freeze. Where's your bleeding heart to regulate those? Here's a thought, how about you actually educate yourself on firearm safety. Education is key. You educate yourself before driving a car, yet cars kill more people in the US than guns ever have. How often will you see criticism from other countries? You won't. So stop freaking out everytime there is a tragedy to push your political agenda. Children died. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to blame firearms because some psychotic, diaper stain decided to steal his mothers guns and go on a rampage because he was mad at the world. How about you start blaming the killer for a change? Everybody wants to start blaming anything but the one who committed the crime. This kid broke 41 laws, so guess what? LAWS AND SIGNS DO NOT PREVENT PEOPLE FROM COMMITTING CRIMES!!

Or how many lives guns saved in a year as opposed to how many they took. that never gets reported. because it doesn't make headlines.

this guy killed his mother then STOLE her guns to use. there is also evidence that this guy tried to buy a gun a week earlyer and was turned away. looks like Connecticut gun laws (which are quite stringent) worked in this case. whether he stole the key to his mothers guns or she didn't have them stored correctly. they weren't his legally obtained firearms.

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Originally posted by izuzan

this guy killed his mother then STOLE her guns to use. there is also evidence that this guy tried to buy a gun a week earlyer and was turned away. looks like Connecticut gun laws (which are quite stringent) worked in this case. whether he stole the key to his mothers guns or she didn't have them stored correctly. they weren't his legally obtained firearms.

Moral of the story; If his mother hadn't had any guns for him to steal he wouldn't have had access to any gun to kill with most likely.

moral of the story if he couldn't get one a legal way he broke the law to get one. what was to stop him from getting one from a thug off the street ?. nope he was just mentally deranged enough to kill his own mother.

TURN OFF THE NEWS.......

Morgan Freeman's brilliant take on what happened yesterday :

"You want to know why. This may sound cynical, but here's why.


It's because of the way the media reports it. Flip on the news and watch how we treat the Batman theater shooter and the Oregon mall shooter like celebrities. Dylan Klebold and Eric Harris are household names, but do you know the name of a single *victim* of Columbine? Disturbed
people who would otherwise just off themselves in their basements see the news and want to top it by doing something worse, and going out in a memorable way. Why a grade school? Why children? Because he'll be remembered as a horrible monster, instead of a sad nobody.

CNN's article says that if the body count "holds up", this will rank as the second deadliest shooting behind Virginia Tech, as if statistics somehow make one shooting worse than another. Then they post a video interview of third-graders for all the details of what they saw and heard while the shootings were happening. Fox News has plastered the killer's face on all their reports for hours. Any articles or news stories yet that focus on the victims and ignore the killer's identity? None that I've seen yet. Because they don't sell. So congratulations, sensationalist media, you've just lit the fire for someone to top this and knock off a day care center or a maternity ward next.

You can help by forgetting you ever read this man's name, and remembering the name of at least one victim. You can help by donating to mental health research instead of pointing to gun control as the problem. You can help by turning off the news."

Well, from what I've read about this guy in particular, he didn't sound like the kind of guy who had any banger-friends.

That's my whole point. Where does all the guns come from in the first place?

The manufacturers don't sell them to bangers.
Dealers don't sell them to bangers.

So does the bangers manufacture their own weapons? No, in most cases the weapons are stolen from a "responsible" gun owner most likely. Is that "responsible" owner held accountable for the lack of proper control and handling of his weapon? Most likely not, I'd say they even get compensation for loosing their weapon. At least if they have it insured.

So where does all these weapons come from?

Actually there is a study that says about 40% of dealers are crooked and selling to known Straw buyers. (someone legally allowed to buy a firearm, they then give it to the criminal)

maybe more restrictions on becoming a gun dealer.
maybe in the states they are stolen i dont pay much attention to your news. but up here in Canada, guns used in the commission of a crime that were legally owned by a Canadian citizen are around the 1% mark. the crime guns up here can be traced coming from the states.

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Originally posted by Raothi

It's hilarious that people from other countries that DON'T have the freedoms that we do are so quick to offer opinions of why we should give up our guns.

Hilarious is not the right word there.

Also, you really don't know where most of the people here are from. (For example, I'm not really from the Faulkland Islands)

Quote:

Originally posted by Raothi

Guess what kids? 230,000,000 gun owners didn't kill anybody in their lives.

Guess what, millions of drunk drivers don't kill anyone. We should probably legalize drunk driving then, right? Because, you know, who are you to tell me I can't drive on roads after having a few brews? THATS MY FREEDOM TO DRIVE DRUNK IF I WANT TO!

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Originally posted by Raothi

You see some psychotic moron kill somebody and you freak out...

If it was just one psychotic moron, that'd be one thing. But about 10,000 people a year die due to firearms in the US.

Quote:

Originally posted by Raothi

or wait, that was with a car, or a knife, or a baseball bat, or posion, or rope, or anti-freeze. Where's your bleeding heart to regulate those?

Well, any murder is tragic. But here's the thing you don't seem to understand: Guns murder FAR FAR more people than all those other things combined. You're like a cheese lobbyist complaining that the American Heart Association recommends lowering your intake of fat by running around yelling, "BUT GRAPES HAVE FAT IN THEM TOO!"

Here, maybe pictures will help you:


Source: US Department of Justice

People focus on guns because GUNS ARE RESPONSIBLE FOR MORE HOMICIDES THAN ALL OTHER METHODS OF HOMICIDE COMBINED.

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Originally posted by Raothi

Here's a thought, how about you actually educate yourself on firearm safety. Education is key.

I'm trying to educate people. People like yourself.

Guns kill people. The more guns in a society, the more deaths there will be. If you're okay living in a society that has lots and lots of deaths caused by guns, okay, that's your prerogative, but at least start from a factual basis.

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Originally posted by Raothi

You educate yourself before driving a car, yet cars kill more people in the US than guns ever have.

So does heart disease. Maybe we should ban food.

You see, food and cars serve a very, very useful purpose, so the idea of banning them is silly. With respect to cars, societies have made the decision to deal with some acceptable level of injury and death because the benefits from using cars are so great that nobody really objects to their use.

The purpose of guns is to kill. That's why they exist. And so, there's a good case to be made for people who wish to minimize killing in their societies. Just as people have decided, as a society, that the benefit of cars outweighs the harm done by cars, people can do a calculation for themselves and decide whether they think the benefits of guns are worth the harm done by guns.

Lots of people think the answer to that is "no."

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Originally posted by Raothi

How often will you see criticism from other countries? You won't. So stop freaking out everytime there is a tragedy to push your political agenda.

But you're allowed to push your political agenda? You don't think gun advocacy is a political stance? Try not to be so hypocritical.

Quote:

Originally posted by Raothi

Children died. You should be ashamed of yourself for trying to blame firearms because some psychotic, diaper stain decided to steal his mothers guns and go on a rampage because he was mad at the world.

Uh, what killed those children. I mean, physically, how did they die?

There was an incident in China the other day in which a deranged person stabbed 22 people at a school, many of them children. None of them died or even suffered serious injury. Why do you think that is? What could possibly be the difference between that incident and the one in Newton, CT?

Quote:

Originally posted by Raothi

How about you start blaming the killer for a change? Everybody wants to start blaming anything but the one who committed the crime.

You know, these aren't mutually exclusive concepts.

People can, at the same time, blame BOTH the killer AND the system which made available weapons which facilitated this mass murder.

Quote:

Originally posted by Raothi

This kid broke 41 laws, so guess what? LApprWS AND SIGNS DO NOT PREVENT PEOPLE FROM COMMITTING CRIMES!!

YES THEY DO!!!!!:
http://jeffsachs.org/wp-content/uploads/2012/12/Australia-Gun-Law-Reforms.pdf

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In the 18 years before the gun law reforms, there were 13 mass shootings in Australia, and none in
the 10.5 years afterwards. Declines in firearm-related deaths before the law reforms accelerated after the
reforms for total firearm deaths (p = 0.04), firearm suicides (p = 0.007) and firearm homicides (p = 0.15), but
not for the smallest category of unintentional firearm deaths, which increased. No evidence of substitution
effect for suicides or homicides was observed. The rates per 100 000 of total firearm deaths, firearm
homicides and firearm suicides all at least doubled their existing rates of decline after the revised gun laws.

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

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Then why in Switzerland where everyone is required to have a firearm in their house do they have little to no gun crime ?

In Switzerland there are 45.7 guns per 100 people. In the US is 88.8 per 100 people. Almost double the guns per person, so your argument has little validity.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_ownership_rate

uh huh. then check out the crime rate. with half the guns it should be close to proportional. its nowhere close they have little to no crime compared to the us. the US unfortunately is just VERY broken. and not in the to many guns dept.

We've already thrown out the Switzerland-theory several pages back.

The Swiss gun-laws have changed drastically in later years and they aren't promoting gun ownership. The people who have or had weapons in their households were required to have them there because they were doing their military service. There's also the detail about the Swiss not having their weapons in their homes to the same extent any longer and the fact that they don't get ammunition to those weapons anymore either.