Gun Control

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

This thread has gotten ridiculous. Arming school teachers is the most absurd thing I've ever heard.

No, no, you don't understand. School teachers need to be armed because he wants to shoot paper targets and kill some animals in the woods.


Mr. Gun Nut Izuzan, answer me this one simple question:
If there are more guns available in a society, do more people die because of them?

ok. how do you remove 200 million firearms in the united states with one of the countries with the highest firearms crime rates in the world south of the border and easy access by water to bring new guns in. lets see your answer to this smartass.

Answer my question first.

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

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why is it absurd ? give me some reasons. with the right holster the kids cant touch it. they dont leave it laying around (basic gun safety)

heres an idea. lets make schools into a prison. cant get in without a RFID chip embedded in your arm. classroom doors are barred shut from the inside each room has a washroom for the kids. no recess. lock the whole thing down maybe that will keep the kids safe. easier than trying to confiscate over 200 million legally owned firearms.

I'm not saying that gun control would solve the problem overnight..if you've read this thread, you'd see where I've said many times that it would take time. The simple fact of the matter is that less guns = less gun crime. So if there are fewer guns, then there would be no need for teachers to carry, and no need to turn schools into prisons. How on earth can more guns possibly be the solution?

Also...its closer to 300 million guns.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

...

No, no, you don't understand. School teachers need to be armed because he wants to shoot paper targets and kill some animals in the woods.


Mr. Gun Nut Izuzan, answer me this one simple question:
If there are more guns available in a society, do more people die because of them?

if you take away all the guns in a society does the rate of deaths by other means go up ? are "gun deaths" including suicide ? that's one of the big arguments up here that the registry reduced suicides by guns. what they fail to mention is suicides by jumping off bridges knives and other means went up in proportion.

Yes, all gun deaths. Currently there are about 10,000 per year in the US. Would that go up or down if you limited access to firearms?

there already is limiting access to guns. not everyone can walk in and buy a gun. this shooter proved that.

Canada should be a good judge for this as we just made it easier to obtain firearms. so far gun crime has gone down across Canada EXCEPT in the one province that kept the gun registry.

Quote:

Originally posted by Raothi

My family is alive and unharmed because I carried that day. What part of this is not clear?

No, your family is alive because you took action to protect them. As I said, there's probably thousands of stories like yours where no weapons was involved.

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

With training ? absolutely nothing. how many cops go ape shit and kill people ? what makes them any different than a school teacher ? hell "brinks" guards are armed they take a half day course and are allowed to carry what could go wrong there ?
with training anyone should be able to. as the saying goes. "if it saves just one life."

I could probably dig up hundreds of stories about policemen abusing or misusing their weapons to be honest.

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

how many guns are there in the states ? rough guess ? do you honestly think you can get rid of them all ? get the criminals to give theirs up ? keep them from coming in from Mexico, Brazil other countries ?

Honestly, yes, I don't think it's impossible.

The problem is the general attitude towards guns and the right to carry them. It wouldn't go over night and you wouldn't get all weapons but it would go a long ways towards making the whole society a safer place.

As I've said before, no cookie-dough, no cookies.

It's not just about removing the guns that are already out there. It's also about restricting access to weapons that aren't available to the public. Decreasing the manufacturing of weapons in the first place would go a long way as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

there already is limiting access to guns. not everyone can walk in and buy a gun. this shooter proved that.

Canada should be a good judge for this as we just made it easier to obtain firearms. so far gun crime has gone down across Canada EXCEPT in the one province that kept the gun registry.

Gun registry isn't the same as gun control. Besides, the Canadian gun registry was a joke from day 1 and everyone knew it.

Also....Answer EL's question.

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

...
why is it absurd ? give me some reasons. with the right holster the kids cant touch it. they dont leave it laying around (basic gun safety)

heres an idea. lets make schools into a prison. cant get in without a RFID chip embedded in your arm. classroom doors are barred shut from the inside each room has a washroom for the kids. no recess. lock the whole thing down maybe that will keep the kids safe. easier than trying to confiscate over 200 million legally owned firearms.

Yeah, that will produce mentally stable and reliable kids allright..

(especially if you then release them into a society where guns are readily available over the counter)

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Gun registry isn't the same as gun control. Besides, the Canadian gun registry was a joke from day 1 and everyone knew it.

Also....Answer EL's question.

It truly truly amazes me the non sequitirs, topic changes and rhetorical gymnastics the pro-gunners go through to avoid answering a simple, straightforward question.

ok, so explain to me what is your idea of gun control OTHER than banning firearms because it will never happen, there will ALWAYS be guns around.

my idea of gun control is making it harder(because there is always a way) for unsuitable people to own guns.

as i stated up here we have to take a course. which would be closer to better education. we have to have a firearms license to buy a gun.

hell in November i walked in said i want that gun, showed my license and i walked out. down there you have to wait a week while they run a background check on you. all my license has to be is valid. not as many legally owned guns up here. but quite a few illegal guns in the hands of criminals.

Education and attitude. also Social standing and wealth. the states is going through a shit time right now, Canada isn't much better (i have been unemployed since august) school shootings are rare up here. it wouldn't have stopped the guy from getting guns. mind you. if i had a mentally unstable person in my house id likely not have runs. or have them locked up FAR FAR better than having a key on my key-chain to get into my safe.

Not answering until you answer EL's question.

looking. my google foo is lacking at the moment. cant find any substantial articals proving either way. other than the Harvard one i posted. cant find the one EL posted.

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

ok, so explain to me what is your idea of gun control OTHER than banning firearms because it will never happen, there will ALWAYS be guns around.

You keep bringing this up. Yes, there will always be guns available to the people who really wants one. Illegally or otherwise.

Will less criminals have guns if they are harder to come by? Of course they will. Guns don't magically pop out of thin air whenever you ask for one. They are manufactured (legally) by someone who then sell them (legally) to someone else who then has to take responsibility for what happens to the weapon. That's where gun control is failing.

You need to be held accountable for what happens to your weapon.

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

my idea of gun control is making it harder(because there is always a way) for unsuitable people to own guns.

Who decides who is suitable and who isn't?

What happens when a person manages to get a gun legally and then snaps and suddenly becomes unsuitable?

Mental health changes. Regular checkups then?

Quote:

Originally posted by izuzan

Education and attitude. also Social standing and wealth. the states is going through a shit time right now, Canada isn't much better (i have been unemployed since august) school shootings are rare up here. it wouldn't have stopped the guy from getting guns. mind you. if i had a mentally unstable person in my house id likely not have runs. or have them locked up FAR FAR better than having a key on my key-chain to get into my safe.

School shootings have never happened here. At least not on the scale we're talking about in this thread.

While I agree that education goes far in the way of handling weapons in a proper way and storing them in a safe way but that still doesn't beat the safety of the weapons not being there in the first place. Remove the guns and you remove the threat entirely. As long as the guns are still there, there will always be a threat.

This thread was never intended to divide us...I know that some of us will have one opinion, some will have another...and thats cool. However, we can all agree that shootings like the one yesterday are a problem, and without debate...nothing changes. Things need to change! Is gun control the only answer...of course not. But it is one solution...just as improved mental health care is. The simple fact remains though....if there were no guns...like zero...they didn't exist...then there would be no gun crime. This can not be argued. So if there were only a few guns, it stands to reason that there would only be a few crimes. If a country has almost enough guns for every man, woman, and child, then it stands to reason that there would be fairly high gun crime.

Well, there are other studies. Lots of them.

But I'm pretty sure that the ones that are easy to find aren't going to say what you want them to say.

It's sort of the same way you can find like 15 or 20 total published studies that say global warming doesn't exist, but you'll have to search through something like 15,000 ones that say it does before you can find them.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

This thread was never intended to divide us...I know that some of us will have one opinion, some will have another...and thats cool. However, we can all agree that shootings like the one yesterday are a problem, and without debate...nothing changes. ...

Yeah, but when that debate turns to "elementary school teachers should be packing heat" I think we've left any rational debate and moved into a land where people are just so wrapped up in their own cognitive biases that they can't possibly add to a productive discussion.

http://www.buckeyefirearms.org/node/7438 here is one going over a book by john lott. he states that crime has been steadily dropping over the years while gun ownership has steadily increased.

http://johnrlott.tripod.com/op-eds/BritainToyGunsWSJE.html another by john lott.

http://news.bbc./2/hi/uk_news/1440764.stm news artical from the UK

here are a couple. accept them or not. il get more in the morning.

just start searching. i even worded my searches in your favor. "fewer guns equals less crime" first 3 pages i havent seen any that support your side of things.