Gun Control

Quote:

Originally posted by HarleyDude

Eliminating the tool does not eliminate the motivation or the act. As long as there is a means for mass destruction, there will be mass murder.

I agree....but its a step in the right direction. Look at the case in China today also, a man stabs 22 children and 1 adult. The violence is still there, but the difference....non of the 23 in China are dead.

Quote:

Originally posted by HarleyDude

In fact, I believe that a very good argument can be made that stricter gun control laws could make incidents of mass murder more violent

No, that wouldn't be a very good argument.

You know there are, like actual countries that have severely cracked down on guns after mass murder incidents. And, not surprisingly, mass-murder incidents have nearly completely disappeared from those countries. You can start your search with "The Port Arthur Massacre" and go from there.



Listen, y'all, the fact is that if you remove guns from a society that society will murder fewer people. This is not debatable. There are actual statistics kept on these things: http://www.hsph.harvard.edu/research/hicrc/firearms-research/guns-and-death/index.html

Now, if you want to argue that you're willing to put up with some toddlers being murdered because of freedom or whatever, go ahead. But can we please stop with the factually incorrect statements about how guns make people safer or whatever. Gun ownership corresponds to higher levels of murder in advanced countries. End of story.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

...can we please stop with the factually incorrect statements about how guns make people safer or whatever. Gun ownership corresponds to higher levels of murder in advanced countries. End of story.

...so, apparently anybody with an opinion that differs from your's is "factually incorrect". So I wonder...who decides what is fact? Oh yeah, you do.

Ya know, Timothy McVeigh didn't need a gun to blow up the Oklahoma City building. The 911 terrorists killed 3000 people and not one gun used. The old adage is still true. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns...

Sugarpie, that is rediculous & people like you have zero respect for others & their rights. The only thing that will do is unarm the law abiding people. Criminals don't follow the law anyways. I read a study that Chevrolet Suburbans when involved in a traffic accident have the highest death rate for people in the other cars. Maybe we should outlaw the Suburban too?? The problem is that this country has gotten away from disciplining their kids. There is no fear or respect for parents or authority. "Change the constitution" you say? You should be ashamed of yourself & keep your ignorant oppinions to yourself!!

No cookie-dough, no cookies.

No weapons, no deaths by weapons.

How is that a hard concept to understand?

First, there's plenty of gun laws on the books already, adding more wont help a bit. Just sit back and think how many laws that guy broke to go on this killing spree, you honestly think another 100 laws would of stopped him. Second, while I agree with background checks it wouldn't of done a bit of good here. Why? They were his moms guns. Safe and trigger locks don't help much in families due to the tendency to share with the adults in said family how to access the guns.

No, you are pointing your finger at the wrong place because guns are not the problem. Our problem is two fold, our criminal justice system and mental health system. We are constantly letting known violent criminals out of jail where other countries keep them locked up or kill them. According to a DA in the state who is recognized nationwide as an expert in this area, for every 1 murderer put to death 10 murders are prevented. How do they know? By interviewing criminals and asking why they did or didn't kill. Of course if we actually kept our criminals locked up like most countries do around the world, the only people they can victimize is other criminals.

Now on to the mental health issue. The US has a huge problem here and lets admit it, most mass murders are mental or they wouldn't of done it to begin with. Due to our constitution and legal system we generally can't institutionlize someone until after they do something violent. Due to money constraints they are put on meds, "cured" and released. We can't force people to take medication so they quit. We don't monitor those have been released and considered violent. We don't monitor those that are likely to become violent as their mental state declines. We don't screen for schizophrenia and a lot of mass killers are schizo and the age it really hits is......early 20's, how old were the two killers in the news this week?

In short we need to leave guns alone, lock up violent criminals permanently and overhaul how we deal with mental health issues here in the US. Do that and gun violence would drop.

Few other tidbits:
-FBI says gun toting americans stop 2 million crimes a year.
-Child death rate from guns? They are listing adults up to 25 years old as kids. I don't know about you but I start listing someone as an adult at 18 because that's when they are legally recognized as one.
-Most "kid" related gun deaths are gang on gang related shootings, see above.
-More kids die every year from drinking the drain cleaner and other chemicals under your sink then from guns every year. You just might want to think about that.
-The AR-15 they keep showing is rarely used in shootings due to the fact it can't readily be hidden. Also it is not an M-16 fully automatic rifle like the military uses. The AR-15 is a semi automatic rifle designed to look like an M-16. You have to squeeze the trigger for each and every shot it fires, it may look scarier but it is no more deadly then 100's of other semi automatic rifles out there that look like a regular old hunting rifles. You know, those rifles that most gun control nuts are not clamoring to have outlawed. Yes, it typically comes with a bigger clip but I can buy bigger clips for hunting rifles too so long as it doesn't have an internal magazine.
-The now defunct Brady law some want to bring back banned guns on how they appeared, not on their actual ability to do harm to a great number of people. So it regulated guns that functionally were no different than a hunting rifle but looked dangerous while leaving alone guns that could do much greater damage because they didn't look dangerous. Brady bill was a horrible piece of legislation.
-The Aurora movie theater shooting. There was 7 movie theatres withing 20 minutes of the guys house, the one where he did the shooting was the farthest one away where he literally drove past a couple other theatres just to get to that one. Why did he choose that theatre? We'll probably never know for sure but it was the only one of the 7 that had signs up stating guns were not allowed on the premises. Coincidence? Most shooters are cowards so form your own opinion of that one.
-Believe it or not, the NRA agrees we need background checks and those with severe mental disorders should not be allowed to purchase guns. See, they really are reasonable.

Guess I want to toss in this little story about how we keep letting out violent criminals. A friend of ours heard shouting outside his door so went to investigate. There was an obvious gang banger standing out there yelling at two young women about how he was going to kill them if they didn't put out for him. He told the girls to get inside and called the cops who showed up and arrested the man. The women pressed charges so he went to the trial as a witness. This guys rap sheet was loooong, mostly for violent crimes and was currently on parole. Prior to trial he showed up at our friends door a couple times to try an intimidate him into not testifying, being an older gentleman and cancer survivor he wasn't intimidated. Anyway, the guy got off on a technicality and due to that didn't even go to jail on a parole violation. That very next weekend he killed a guy by slitting his throat. He claimed self defense and as there was no witnesses and the dead guy couldn't testify he got away with that too.

Quote:

Originally posted by HarleyDude

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...so, apparently anybody with an opinion that differs from your's is "factually incorrect". So I wonder...who decides what is fact? Oh yeah, you do.

So apparently you don't know the difference between opinion and fact. When I provide a link to peer-reviewed studies, I didn't just make those up because the narrative fits my preconceived notions of what the world is like.

The 4 peer-reviewed studies that I linked to decide what's fact, because they actually use the data available and look at homicide rates across nations, states and cities and compare that to the number of guns in that area. The more guns, the more homicide. They're describing what happens in the world in places where there are more guns and what happens in the world in places where there are less guns. That's not opinion.

I don't care what arguments you make after that, but that's the starting point for any rational discussion of the issue.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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There are 88.8 guns per 100 people in the US...meaning that almost 9 out of every 10 people own a gun...that is insane!! In Canada that number is 30.8. That is a HUGE difference.

Yes, people kill people, but guns help them do that.

I don't want to take away rights because of a criminal...I just think that it should be much harder to get a gun, and certain guns should never be available for sale to people.

Your crunching numbers but that doesn't mean that 9 out of 10 people in the US own a gun. If you own one you own several in MOST cases. The US has grown into a gun culture PLAIN AND SIMPLE. I could debate gun control here in the US all day but you don't even live here!!!

I am from close by CT and this is tragic. But leave my 2nd Amendment Right to bear arms alone.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

...

So apparently you don't know the difference between opinion and fact. When I provide a link to peer-reviewed studies, I didn't just make those up because the narrative fits my preconceived notions of what the world is like.

The 4 peer-reviewed studies that I linked to decide what's fact, because they actually use the data available and look at homicide rates across nations, states and cities and compare that to the number of guns in that area. The more guns, the more homicide. They're describing what happens in the world in places where there are more guns and what happens in the world in places where there are less guns. That's not opinion.

I don't care what arguments you make after that, but that's the starting point for any rational discussion of the issue.

For the sake of argument if I lived in an area that had more knives more people would be stabbed to death rather than shot... i.e. the wack job in China who killed 30 some chlidren in a school... Just sayin.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Yes, people kill people, but guns help them do that.

I don't want to take away rights because of a criminal...I just think that it should be much harder to get a gun, and certain guns should never be available for sale to people.

Your comment bothers me severely. So let me see if I am understanding what you say correctly. Because of some CRIMINAL, now I must go through even tougher processes to LEGALLY own a gun when this CRIMINAL did NOT legally own the 2 handguns that he used to kill those 20 innocent children. Am i off key here in how I am reading your comment? Let me guess, you prolly think that by making crack, heroine, and meth hard to get it will get rid of the drug problem also right? Guess what those drugs are ILLEGAL and their use is out of control still. The fact of the matter is, people ARE going to kill people if they really want to. If it is made harder to buy guns LEGALLY then it will just become harder to legally own a gun. CRIMINALS will still get guns and they will still continue to kill people no matter how hard it is to legally own a gun. To whom this may offend or piss off, I'm sorry. This is just how I see it and believe it should be. I believe we should hold the people selling guns improperly accountable. Again, just an opinion.

Quote:

Originally posted by lubriderm

...
For the sake of argument if I lived in an area that had more knives more people would be stabbed to death rather than shot... i.e. the wack job in China who killed 30 some chlidren in a school... Just sayin.

Except that...

× No one was killed.
× It was 22 children and 1 adult. Not thirty children dead.

[ source: http://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-attacks-22-kids-knife-china-school-article-1.1220230 ]

Quote:

Originally posted by meetoo157

Ya know, Timothy McVeigh didn't need a gun to blow up the Oklahoma City building. The 911 terrorists killed 3000 people and not one gun used. The old adage is still true. When guns are outlawed, only outlaws will have guns...

Yes, I agree that you can kill people without a gun. It's just harder to do. That's why when the supply of guns is limited homicides go down.

Quote:

Originally posted by Phaxmeone

First, there's plenty of gun laws on the books already, adding more wont help a bit. Just sit back and think how many laws that guy broke to go on this killing spree, you honestly think another 100 laws would of stopped him. Second, while I agree with background checks it wouldn't of done a bit of good here. Why? They were his moms guns. Safe and trigger locks don't help much in families due to the tendency to share with the adults in said family how to access the guns.

If your first paragraph is indicative of how accurate your post is, you're in trouble.

http://www.theatlantic.com/national/archive/2011/01/the-geography-of-gun-deaths/69354/


“The map overlays the map of firearm deaths above with gun control restrictions by state. It highlights states which have one of three gun control restrictions in place – assault weapons’ bans, trigger locks, or safe storage requirements. Firearm deaths are significantly lower in states with stricter gun control legislation. Though the sample sizes are small, we find substantial negative correlations between firearm deaths and states that ban assault weapons (-.45), require trigger locks (-.42), and mandate safe storage requirements for guns (-.48).”

Maybe I'll look over the rest when I have more time.

Quote:

Originally posted by lubriderm

...

For the sake of argument if I lived in an area that had more knives more people would be stabbed to death rather than shot... i.e. the wack job in China who killed 30 some chlidren in a school... Just sayin.

Maybe, maybe not. But the total number of homicides would go down.

The more guns available, the more people die.

Also, as Kanzen pointed out, your China example completely undermines your point since, you know, nobody died in those stabbings.

I'd rather make them use knives and baseball bats and shit. Its harder. Its more intimate. Make the crazies earn it. Had that guy showed up in Connecticut with a knife or a lead pipe he might have killed some people, but he'd have killed less. The unarmed teachers would have been in a better position to engage him. It would have been bad and awful, but not nearly as bad and awful. You can't stop crazy people. You can't. But you can limit the damage they can do.

You can at least try.

Quote:

Originally posted by bfg135

I am from close by CT and this is tragic. But leave my 2nd Amendment Right to bear arms alone.

Are you a member of a "well regulated militia?"

Gun control only makes it harder for Law Biding people to use their rights legally. Their is only so much that can be done with gun control.

If people want to kill, they will do it with or without a gun. Also today in China (I am glad sugarpie said something about China) 33 children were stabbed to death. The problem has nothing to do with guns. Guns are only a tool people use.[/reply

People like you who think that gun ownership has no connection to the amount of gun related murders.




While I know it's a sensitive topic, let's not hurl personal insults, okay?
-EL

No, but I want to keep my options open.
So, If I have to be, yes.

20 school children were stabbed in China yesterday at their school.