Obama

Why wont he (or cant he) produce an official Birth Certificate? Seems to me we have a foreign born President! Whats YOUR OPINIONS?

Doesn't matter. Born to an American citizen anywhere, he's an American. You birthers are morons.

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Originally posted by russej

Doesn't matter. Born to an American citizen anywhere, he's an American. You birthers are morons.

This is the truth...

Quote:

Originally posted by russej

Doesn't matter. Born to an American citizen anywhere, he's an American. You birthers are morons.

wrong. his father was not a US citizen, and his mother was not old enough, had not been a citizen long enough to qualify under that provision. do your research before you call people 'morons.' I'm not sayin' I know the whole truth, but I don't grasp why we still don't know.

I get it, you don't like Obama.

The fact is he was democratically elected president...doesn't that matter?

I mean, even if he isn't a citizen, he was elected. People need to let this shit go and just accept the fact he's the president.

Now, lets move on to more important things, like whether or not Lady Gaga has a penis.

Quote:

Originally posted by russej

Doesn't matter. Born to an American citizen anywhere, he's an American. You birthers are morons.

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Originally posted by Kornbread82

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This is the truth...

Not quite; it's nowhere near that cut and dry.

There are a number of stipulations that must be met in order for a child born to American Citizens abroad to be considered a natural born US citizen. For example, as of 1986, children born abroad to one parent who is a citizen of the US are considered a citizen only if all of the following are true:

1. One of the person's parents was a U.S. citizen when the person in question was born;
2. The citizen parent lived at least 5 years in the United States before his or her child's birth;
3. A minimum of 2 of these 5 years in the United States were after the citizen parent's 14th birthday.

There is another set of criteria for people with two parents who are citizens, another set for people born between 1952 and 1986, and yet another set of rules for those born before 1952, as the law has changed a number of times over the last 100 years, and the law in place at the time of the persons birth is the law by which their citizenship is determined.

Oddly contrasting that set of laws is the 14th Amendment which states that ANYONE born in the United States is also a natural born citizen, provided they are "subject to the jurisdiction thereof." (Basically that means that foreign diplomats or such, who are not subject to the laws of the US due to diplomatic immunity, are not citizens).

It seems to me that there is a much higher standard for those born outside the geographical lines of the US than in the US, but I didn't write the things, so what do I know?

Generally, it's thought that the term "natural born citizen," with regard to the eligibility requirements for the Presidency, means just that - that the individual must be born a US citizen, and not a citizen through the nationalization process. This would mean that "natural born citizen" would include people whose parents were U.S. citizens, and were therefore U.S. citizens at birth (provided the stipulations for citizenship at the time of the birth of the child were met), yet born outside of the actual United States themselves. The distinction between jus sanguinis and jus solis, or citizenship by location, isn't mutually exclusive, so both are ways about which a child could be a natural born citizen.

Either way, the term "natural born citizen" was last legally used in 1795, and I don't think those fellas are going to tell us exactly what they meant when they used it and since there is no real case law to guide the issue, it makes for an interesting debate.


All that aside, I voted Mars, because I really don't really care where Obama was born, but it doesn't mean there isn't an interesting legal question behind all of it, since it's never really been brought before a court (and may never be, as I'm not sure who has standing to challenge such a thing, since courts routinely rule that individual citizens don't have standing to challenge the legitimacy of a President)

BTW, a compelling argument could be made that John McCain wasn't a natural born citizen, and was in fact a Panamanian citizen at birth.

Quote:

Originally posted by BillK

wrong. his father was not a US citizen, and his mother was not old enough, had not been a citizen long enough to qualify under that provision. do your research before you call people 'morons.' I'm not sayin' I know the whole truth, but I don't grasp why we still don't know.

If I were him, I wouldn't release the information either, because all the people who go on bleating about his citizenship papers just make themselves out to be conspiratorial and on the lunatic fringe in the eyes of most rational thinking folk. It's a great political strategy to marginalize your most vocal opponents.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

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If I were him, I wouldn't release the information either, because all the people who go on bleating about his citizenship papers just make themselves out to be conspiratorial and on the lunatic fringe in the eyes of most rational thinking folk. It's a great political strategy to marginalize your most vocal opponents.

...and on that thinly veiled burn, I rated this thread a five.

Quote:

Originally posted by Honda_X

I get it, you don't like Obama.

The fact is he was democratically elected president...doesn't that matter?

I mean, even if he isn't a citizen, he was elected. People need to let this shit go and just accept the fact he's the president.

Now, lets move on to more important things, like whether or not Lady Gaga has a penis.

Well, the fact is,if he is not eligible, then he was not democratically elected. Has nothing to do with who likes him or not.
In spite of what some judges have said, any ctizen should have standing to take it to court.
Both of McCain's parents were citizens, and he didn't get elected anyway. Irrelevant dead issue.

I guess what I was getting at is why does it really matter all that much...

Since it's not going to change jack shit anyway, and he'll be the president for at least a couple more years.

A lot of the birthers and tea baggers party people need to find a better use of their time. (like arguing on a site that has teh pornoz..because it's more fun, due to boobies)

sooooo...
free speech for everyone but the ""teabaggers""?? in spite of what the lame duck governor of MI says, those ain't all "right wing lunatics." they are people with valid concerns about where their money is going. I stll stand by what I said last year; no matter who gets elected, we're looking at a one term president.
now, as for the Obama thing, IMO, there should be procedures in place to make sure someone is eligible before he/she is put on the ballot. Considering what the repercussions could be *now*, I don't wanna know.

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Originally posted by BillK

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Well, the fact is,if he is not eligible, then he was not democratically elected.

Um, yes he was. He got the majority of the vote.

Democratic elections are ones in which everyone has the right to vote, the elections are competitive, free and fair. All of those things were met, and as such, he was democratically elected.

Now, if you want to assert he was ineligible, that's a procedural/legal question, but it in no way diminishes the democratic nature in which he was elected.

Quote:

Originally posted by BK

In spite of what some judges have said, any ctizen should have standing to take it to court.
Both of McCain's parents were citizens, and he didn't get elected anyway. Irrelevant dead issue.

Unfortunately, judges get to decide what has standing and what doesn't. Standing requires a number of things, one that there is some actual harm caused to the plaintiff, which, I suppose could be argued. However, there is also "Generalized Grievances" concept that doesn't give standing for any harms that are general in nature and shared amongst a very large group of people (which is why taxpayers don't have standing to sue for misallocation of their resources).

Finally, that both of McCain's parents were US Citizens is irrelevant because the Insular cases governing US territorial acquisitions were the holding law, and since he was born outside of US soil, outside of the canal zone in Panama, and the US Foreign Affairs manual only calls children born in the Canal Zone "US Nationals" which is certainly different than "natural born citizens."

But you're right, it's moot. Just saying that if you want to get crazy about it, you could say that neither of the two major candidates for President was eligible to become president. I wouldn't, but some could.

lol..I still remember a few years ago when anyone that had anything negative to say about the government it was unpatriotic, that was some cool ass free speech.

"America, love it or leave it"..and the such.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT0OqHr3wHQ[/youtube]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0IhQtCRnjHM

no... see, if the candidate was not eligible, there was not a valid election, so he was not democratically elected. it really iss that simple.

"lol..I still remember a few years ago when anyone that had anything negative to say about the government it was unpatriotic, that was some cool ass free speech."

logic is escaping me. two wrongs make a right? anything goes as long as it's for ""our side""???

Quote:

Originally posted by BillK

no... see, if the candidate was not eligible, there was not a valid election, so he was not democratically elected. it really iss that simple.

You don't get it.

The word "democratic" relates to the manner in which a person/people who run(s) the government is elected - specifically through the support of a majority of the people via elections. That's how Obama was elected.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the eligibility of a candidate, which is a legal question, not a political one.

Quote:

Originally posted by BillK

logic is escaping me. two wrongs make a right? anything goes as long as it's for ""our side""???

No, I just think it's cute how quickly peoples opinions can change depending on how butthurt they are about how the elections turned out.

But to be fair, I am Canadian and all that, and have been mostly trolling this thread because I'm bored...I really ought to gets back to work.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

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You don't get it.

The word "democratic" relates to the manner in which a person/people who run(s) the government is elected - specifically through the support of a majority of the people via elections. That's how Obama was elected.

It has absolutely nothing to do with the eligibility of a candidate, which is a legal question, not a political one.

no, no, sorry. you're the one who doesn't get it. if the candidate was ineligible, the election was not legal, so he is not duly elected, which is why I said earlier that it would be my personal preference not to know at this point. if he were to be found now to be ineligible, everything he's done would have to be undone.

and, Honda, when you say "No, I just think it's cute how quickly peoples opinions can change depending on how butthurt they are about how the elections turned out," you have clearly made ASSumptions about where I stand. you have no clue...

and, honda, I might also add that it works both ways. people who screamed the loudest the last 6 years or so now want to cry "sore loser" and even "racist" at those who don't agree with them.

So far the majority says Kenya! Why in the hell are we not standing up and fighting this injustice? He should not be allowed to be the U.S. President!
Hell I wouldnt really care but rules are rules! I guess this is the change he preached about! He hasnt done a whole hell of alot for America hes a fucking show boat elected by those who beleived the hype (media).

Quote:

Originally posted by Assman!

So far the majority says Kenya! Why in the hell are we not standing up and fighting this injustice? He should not be allowed to be the U.S. President!
Hell I wouldnt really care but rules are rules! I guess this is the change he preached about! He hasnt done a whole hell of alot for America hes a fucking show boat elected by those who beleived the hype (media).

YEAH!

Seven guys that voted Kenya...stand up, and fight this injustice!

What are you waiting for, you pussies?