Abortion

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Originally posted by Poida

Interesting how people in the luckiest nations on earth argue about these things while poorest of the poor from the poorest nations on earth breed like flies and stick together in huge families looking out for one another. If this is where money has taken us I say do away with currency and bring back the love.

There's a flaw in your premise here, Poida.

Small families who use currency can also love one another.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

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There's a flaw in your premise here, Poida.

Small families who use currency can also love one another.

I never said that doesn't happen, not once in my premise.

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Originally posted by Poida

Interesting how people in the luckiest nations on earth argue about these things while poorest of the poor from the poorest nations on earth breed like flies and stick together in huge families looking out for one another. If this is where money has taken us I say do away with currency and bring back the love.

A lot of that is due to education, religion, and economic need.

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Originally posted by Poida

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Same here, just thought I'd point that out and what's to say in such an advanced society as ours we can't live in comfort without currency?

Oh, wow.

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Originally posted by moss

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First of all......If you calm down & read the post I was talking about the mom having primary custody since he wanted her to have an abortion. In that scenario YES she has the right to force him to pay child support.

You never mentioned this until just now.

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Originally posted by moss

Second.....Please tell us what "steps to avoid it" are 100%.... None!! But it's cute the way you make it his responsibility. Your "boo hoo" emotions took over your logical thinking again.

I never claimed any method was 100% effective, in fact I've said otherwise at the start of his thread. Also, I never said that the man was the only one responsible for birth control. If you're a man and having sex with a woman it is your responsibility to ensure that you have protection though. Just as if you're a women, its your responsibility to either be taking the pill or some other form of contraception, or that the guy has a condom. And if you want to be double sure, both people should be using some form of birth control.

Quote:

Originally posted by moss

Third.....I NEVER said or implied it was only his financial responsibility, NEVER!
What I said was ... The woman has all the control of abortion or not & she also has all the control of forcing the man to pay child support or not.
If women are fighting to keep their abortion rights, the father should have the same rights. The decision should be EQUAL as well as the financial responsibility. There is a lot more to it than a simple "O crap i'm pregnant, should I have an abortion or not"? It's not only 18 years, children are a lifetime commitment

I agree, raising a child is a lifetime commitment, and potentially a financial burden much longer than 18 years, however You've used the phrase "forced to pay child support" time and time again. For the most part in the US child support payments end at 18....thats hardly a lifetime. What about college? Granted some states extend payments to include college, but not all do. In the cases where they don't...who do you suppose pays for college?

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Originally posted by Davey45

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Funny, you sound exactly like people who are anti-abortion. So...if a woman wants an abortion, taking steps to avoid pregnancy are not important but if the man wants one, he shoulda used stronger condoms?

Also, what if a girlfriend lies about being on birth control? That scenario takes place more than most would like to admit. Now she's pregnant and demanding child support money even though the father was told "it's OK, I'm on the pill".

Its both peoples responsibility equally to use birth control. There is no such thing as too much birth control. If she claims she's on the pill, fine, but still use protection....as you should anyway to prevent STD's. Its not a difficult concept, if your not in a committed relationship with someone, use a condom, same goes with the woman...use some form of birth control.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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You never mentioned this until just now.

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I never claimed any method was 100% effective, in fact I've said otherwise at the start of his thread. Also, I never said that the man was the only one responsible for birth control. If you're a man and having sex with a woman it is your responsibility to ensure that you have protection though. Just as if you're a women, its your responsibility to either be taking the pill or some other form of contraception, or that the guy has a condom. And if you want to be double sure, both people should be using some form of birth control.

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I agree, raising a child is a lifetime commitment, and potentially a financial burden much longer than 18 years, however You've used the phrase "forced to pay child support" time and time again. For the most part in the US child support payments end at 18....thats hardly a lifetime. What about college? Granted some states extend payments to include college, but not all do. In the cases where they don't...who do you suppose pays for college?

It sounds like we are reading from the same page now. I agree with most of that.
You ask what about college? That is why I say it's a lifetime commitment. There is always something needed or a way to help when you have children.

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Originally posted by moss

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It sounds like we are reading from the same page now. I agree with most of that.
You ask what about college? That is why I say it's a lifetime commitment. There is always something needed or a way to help when you have children.

About college - Forced payments are only required in many cases until the child is 18. So the parent making those payments is technically off the hook and doesn't need to help out with college, where the parent with custody likely will help.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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About college - Forced payments are only required in many cases until the child is 18. So the parent making those payments is technically off the hook and doesn't need to help out with college, where the parent with custody likely will help.

Yes I know it's only til age 18 in most cases.
The parent with custody will likely help, but only if able to afford it.
The other parent (usually the father) may or may not help. That would depend on if he has a relationship with the child or was just forced by the court to pay support.
Most things in life are weighing out "risk vs reward". Bottom line..... there is not a person alive worth paying 18+ years just for sex so make wise choices.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Its both peoples responsibility equally to use birth control. There is no such thing as too much birth control. If she claims she's on the pill, fine, but still use protection....as you should anyway to prevent STD's. Its not a difficult concept, if your not in a committed relationship with someone, use a condom, same goes with the woman...use some form of birth control.

If you're in a monogamous relationship, you should trust that when your girlfriend says she's on birth control.That's not always the case. Sometimes a woman may want a kid when the man isn't sure yet and "ooops, I forgot to take my pill" happens. Trust me, if there was some form of male birth control that didn't involve a vasectomy almost every man in America would be on it. The main reason a women go on birth control is to have unprotected sex with (hopefully) their monogamous partner.

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Originally posted by Davey45

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If you're in a monogamous relationship, you should trust that when your girlfriend says she's on birth control.That's not always the case. Sometimes a woman may want a kid when the man isn't sure yet and "ooops, I forgot to take my pill" happens. Trust me, if there was some form of male birth control that didn't involve a vasectomy almost every man in America would be on it. The main reason a women go on birth control is to have unprotected sex with (hopefully) their monogamous partner.

I was mostly talking about casual sex, because if you're in a monogamous relationship, you're likely also committed to that person.
I'm sure that there are some women that lie about it, but if they're in a monogamous relationship, then while it may not have been the guys desire to have children, he's still somewhat likely to stick around and help raise said child.

So why isn't a vasectomy an option for a guy? I mean...I hear on the radio all the time that they are painless and take about 5 minutes now. And you can store your sperm in a sperm bank if you want to later have a child. So why isn't this more common?
They are VERY close to having a pill contraceptive for men, I bet we see it in the next few years. I also bet that its a huge failure, as most men still see birth control as the woman's responsibility.

Lastly, while the main reason women take the pill or some other form of hormone based contraception might be for sexual reason, a VERY close 2nd (and it might even be #1) is for hormonal reasons, it helps make our periods more manageable. I don't have sex with men, yet I'm on birth control...You will see TONS of women who aren't dating anyone, still take their pill...and its not because they are hoping to get lucky next week, its because it helps balance things out.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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So why isn't a vasectomy an option for a guy? I mean...I hear on the radio all the time that they are painless and take about 5 minutes now. And you can store your sperm in a sperm bank if you want to later have a child. So why isn't this more common?

Because it's a surgical procedure, it's fairly expensive and its' much more expensive to reverse. If a woman takes birth control and decides she wants a baby, she just has to stop taking the pill. If a man decides he wants to have a baby after vasectomy, he has to a) get a reversal b) hope the stored sperm he might have placed in the sperm bank is enough to get his partner pregnant. (We all know that it sometimes takes months or even years of trying for some couples to get pregnant.)

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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IThey are VERY close to having a pill contraceptive for men, I bet we see it in the next few years. I also bet that its a huge failure, as most men still see birth control as the woman's responsibility.

For someone who doesn't have sex with men, you sure seem to have a lot of opinions on how men view sex and contraception. Do you honestly believe that I, as a man, would prefer to wear a condom than have my own form of birth control? Secondly, after seeing how nonchalant some of my exes have been about staying on schedule with birth control pills, I would love for the responsibility to be on me. I have learned not to trust most people with responsibility. Even trustworthy people tend to get forgetful.

Anywhoo...we have trailed off the subject of abortion so I'm gonna step off the birth control soap box.

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Originally posted by Davey45

Anywhoo...we have trailed off the subject of abortion so I'm gonna step off the birth control soap box.

Maybe a bit, but on another side note, I'm pleasantly surprised at how relatively respectful most of this discourse has been.

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Originally posted by Davey45

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Because it's a surgical procedure, it's fairly expensive and its' much more expensive to reverse. If a woman takes birth control and decides she wants a baby, she just has to stop taking the pill. If a man decides he wants to have a baby after vasectomy, he has to a) get a reversal b) hope the stored sperm he might have placed in the sperm bank is enough to get his partner pregnant. (We all know that it sometimes takes months or even years of trying for some couples to get pregnant.)

I agree with all that, I just find it interesting that hardly any men opt for a vasectomy as a means of birth control...unless they're in a long term committed relationship. Yet women will take a pill for decades, have injections ever 3 months, or have things surgically implanted in them. As for cost, I'll admit to being a little naive on the matter, but a quick google search tells me that many healthcare plans in the US cover at least a portion of it, and that you can get one for as low as $400...thats about the cost of some forms of birth control for 1 year.

Quote:

Originally posted by Davey45

For someone who doesn't have sex with men, you sure seem to have a lot of opinions on how men view sex and contraception. Do you honestly believe that I, as a man, would prefer to wear a condom than have my own form of birth control? Secondly, after seeing how nonchalant some of my exes have been about staying on schedule with birth control pills, I would love for the responsibility to be on me. I have learned not to trust most people with responsibility. Even trustworthy people tend to get forgetful.

lol...I've been with men in the past, and I just know men. No...I don't believe that you would prefer to wear a condom over taking a pill. I actually believe that you would rather do nothing if you were assured that the girl was on birth control. Maybe thats not a fair assumption of you personally, but I think its a fair assumption of men in general.

Lets find out - I've created a survey: https://www.[Blacklisted]/s/SGX6Q67


EDIT, REALLY?? SURVEY MONKEY IS BLACK LISTED??

Fine...I'll work around it for now. I guess y'all have to type out your vote here.

My dad had a vasectomy after having two kids. I have a couple friends with one kid and another on the way that are considering it also.

I would prefer to take some form of male birth control because frankly, I trust myself more than anyone else. As long as there weren't any serious side effects and it was somewhat affordable, I'd do it in a heartbeat.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

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Um, no. I'm not sure why you got all offended at me calling a fetus a parasite, but that's basically what it is. You could also call it a tumor and also be mostly correct.

Either way, when a thing needs to physically take resources from the body of another to remain alive, that's not an equal-footing relationship. The rights of the supporting organism should trump the rights of an organism living off of it.

Nobody should be forced, against their will, to allow their body to be used as a vessel for another organism to grow.

Eric I am not offended, I didn't really take it to seriously. I have a very high opinion of you. I have read many of the things that you have posted in the forums and so forth, and I am very comfortable talking to you. So you know I have a very high opinion of you and your opinions.
Luv always... Lia

Davey, I'm not that sure that men would opt in the option of male pill contraception if it existed. Maybe you would and some others too but I'm really not convinced the majority would.

As for your poll SP, I wouldn't use pill contraception for myself for the same reason my gf stopped it : hormones can mess up with your body, sometimes leading to serious conditions. If a solution like the IUD (without hormones) existed for men, I would most likely consider using it though.

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Originally posted by kylecook

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Maybe a bit, but on another side note, I'm pleasantly surprised at how relatively respectful most of this discourse has been.

Her Pie-ness tends to give me the benefit of the doubt.

Even if I don't agree with someone's posts, I try to counter with stuff that actually makes sense instead of getting into online yelling matches.

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Originally posted by omuh

Davey, I'm not that sure that men would opt in the option of male pill contraception if it existed. Maybe you would and some others too but I'm really not convinced the majority would.

Maybe a majority of men don't take not having kids as seriously as I do. When I say, I'm not interested in having children, it doesn't mean "Oh well, I'll chance it and if it happens, it happens." It means, I will take the necessary steps to avoid knocking up my girlfriend.