London bombings

Quote:

Originally posted by Bank

In regards to the last question posed... more than you'd imagine. Just think of what family Bin Ladin comes from...

And when was the last time Bin Ladin was a suicide bomber?

Bin Laden, in the Islamic world, is a political AND religious leader. Sort of like the pope is to a number of Westerners (it's a stretch, but we don't really have a figure like that to correspond).

All terrorism has to have sponsorship and leaders. They, however, are only the figure heads. The real strength lies in their ability to recruit believers, followers, volunteers to carry out their mission for them. They appeal to these people through a religious/political machine that is very impressive, from a political standpoint. The message they convey resonates with these underpriveliged, impoverished people that have nowhere else to turn. It is deemed acceptable, as their religion condones it, and thus Allah would pleased. They really have no real other viable options.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bank

And you're right, their ideals and goals are different from ours. We promote individual rights and freedom of commerce, religion, etc. They do not.
I'm not brushing them off as stupid. They couldn't accomplish this if they were. However, I am passing judgement on that which they consider valuble; I have a hard time feeling sorry for their (fundamentalists) condition when they strive for the continuation of supressing rights.

I do feel sorry for them. I feel sorry for any people who are in such a poor position (socially, economically, religiously) themselves that they feel they can contribute to their cause the most by dying for it. I agree that as the products of developed nations we do disagree with what they value, which is fine and actually standard amongs people from different areas of the globe. However, I was responing previously to your post in which you said that they are incapable of reasoning. It was that which I took exception to.

There are some supercilious attitudes flying about here at the moment........ NOW I remember why we don't have a politics forum. ........I fear this thread will descend into a flame war in no time.

There is always the school of thought that this is payback for USA and Britain invading Iraq as "Saddam has got WMDs". Which was later proved to be a lie.

Well I diagree a bit, Two completly different wars. World war was fought between two armys. This war will be fought between armys and a bunch of faceless fucking cowards.........

Perhaps I was out of line....
at the same time, I ask, with what could we reason with? They wish for less rights (for women, government, religion, etc). They want our extermination. They do not want our help. They have commited crimes.
Are we to simply forgive them, and turn over our countries to them? Give up our rights to ensure our safety from them?

I feel no sympathy for those whose feel the need to act such a way, for either Islam or to make others 'feel their pain'.

*watches thread carefully*

YM

people have died today, not because of their religion, or politics but because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time going to earn a living to look after thier families. today was plain and simple murder. there is no justification.
i'm still trying to find out if two of my very good friends are ok. they work at liverpool street.
i hope that i hear from them soon.

They don't want us to be sorry for them, they think we (the americans and british) are trying to take over "their world", which is what the real problem is, they don't understand, just like some of us, that in order for the U.S. to leave their places, they need to put down their guns.

they can't end of this war with violence, only peace. The U.S. has commited to the safety of their country, it's our obligation now, and until they stop fighting, we can't leave... despite popularity poles.

(I tried to make this short as possible, there's more to say, but I think It would only upset the mods and cause conflicts of interest, which isn't any fun)

dont worry Yahman, im watching them closely theyre not saying anything wrong.

Ok, FeFe...I know you will, I'll just keep an eye on this thread......You know where to find me.

38 people now known 2 b dead 700 injured

Reasons and causes and politics don't matter much to the people affected by this act of violence today. There aren't "right" words. So, from your brothers and sisters from across the Atlantic......

God save the Queen

God save our gracious Queen,
Long live our noble Queen,
God save the Queen!
Send her victorious,
Happy and Glorious,
Long to reign over us;
God save the Queen!

O Lord our God arise,
Scatter her enemies
And make them fall;
Confound their politics,
Frustrate their knavish tricks,
On Thee our hopes we fix,
Oh, save us all!

Thy choicest gifts in store
On her be pleased to pour;
Long may she reign;
May she defend our laws,
And ever give us cause
To sing with heart and voice,
God save the Queen!

Not in this land alone,
But be God's mercies known,
From shore to shore!
Lord make the nations see,
That men should brothers be,
And form one family,
The wide world over

From every latent foe,
From the assassins blow,
God save the Queen!
O'er her thine arm extend,
For Britain's sake defend,
Our mother, prince, and friend,
God save the Queen!

Quote:

Originally posted by Bank

You are partially correct. But doing nothing would be worse.
What is being debated right now in world politics is similar to the debate which went on between Churchill and Chamberlin durring WWII. Chamberlin wanted understanding and peace; Churchill understood it was impossible. People thought Churchill was insane, and would only furthur Hitler's anger.
With all seriousness, I believe we are on the brink of a similar crisis.
It's not a matter of wanting war. It's an understanding of, in some situations, the need of war.

IMO, It is impossible to compare the two situations, as religion is deeply involved here. Hitler wanted an Empire. Bin Ladin wants isolation. The resolve of the Germans is nowhere near the resolve of the Extremist Muslims here, as people who are defending their own land tend to fight with more vigor and will than those who are not. WWII wasn't fought over religion, it was fought because a tyrant wanted global domination, his 1000 year Reich. Bin Ladin wants nothing of the sort. He wants nothing more than Islamic isolation in the Middle East. The only thing that tends to bind them, other than war, of course, is that they both recruited their follower from a downtrodden mass of people who were persuaded by their declarations of how others are to blame for their current impoverished state.

To achieve real change, yes, some violence is needed. But, to just forcefully demolish all those who disagree will result in more of the same. Terrorism, Guerilla warfare, etc.

me said it once and me say it again , turn the fuckers to glass

Quote:

Originally posted by gothpunk

They don't want us to be sorry for them, they think we (the americans and british) are trying to take over "their world", which is what the real problem is, they don't understand, just like some of us, that in order for the U.S. to leave their places, they need to put down their guns.

they can't end of this war with violence, only peace. The U.S. has commited to the safety of their country, it's our obligation now, and until they stop fighting, we can't leave... despite popularity poles.

(I tried to make this short as possible, there's more to say, but I think It would only upset the mods and cause conflicts of interest, which isn't any fun)

Well put. This is not an issue of popularity.
The right action is not us to cease; it is for them to discontinue the random killings of unrelated individuals. And, for them to finally grant the rights (which we hold as self-evident) to those under their control--by this I mean from the small towns still in Afganistan to the facist Muslim nations in the Middle East.
We are not in the wrong here, and we will not surrender to their ideals.

Quote:

Originally posted by surfarch

Reasons and causes and politics don't matter much to the people affected by this act of violence today. There aren't "right" words.

Wise words indeed!

YM

Quote:

Originally posted by angeleyes

people have died today, not because of their religion, or politics but because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time going to earn a living to look after thier families.

As have many Iraqis. American and British soldiers killing Iraqis think that they're in the right. As hard as it may be for some to understand, these people planting the bombs today think that they're in the right. The killing by all sides has to stop, peace is the only answer.

angeleyes, hope you get in touch with your friends and find that they're okay.

I've got work to do.... but the debate is interesting, EricLindros. I'll respond in a couple of hours to the remarks about WWII.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bank

I've got work to do.... but the debate is interesting, EricLindros. I'll respond in a couple of hours to the remarks about WWII.

HAHA! I have off work today! I WIN BY ATTRITION!

heh, jk

Quote:

Originally posted by theheadhoncho

[reply=angeleyes]
people have died today, not because of their religion, or politics but because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time going to earn a living to look after thier families.

As have many Iraqis. American and British soldiers killing Iraqis think that they're in the right. As hard as it may be for some to understand, these people planting the bombs today think that they're in the right. The killing by all sides has to stop, peace is the only answer.

angeleyes, hope you get in touch with your friends and find that they're okay.
[/reply]

And some more wise remarks indeed!

YM (wishes life could be a forum)