Healthcare: A right or privelege

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

To respond to one of EL's comments, socializing our healthcare system will change the "haves" and "have-nots". It will dramatically increase the "haves".

But at what cost?

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

But because of those few, we would punish the so many in need? This is America. I thought we took care of our own.

Are you kidding me? This is America, where you are responsible for yourself. The government is not your nanny, and shouldn't be expected to fix every problem that arises on the individual level. That is not why it exists, and the only reason it actually does those things is because people, like you, have realized that they can vote themselves benefits that are often better or more plentiful than they can, or are willing to, provide for themselves on their own.

We do take care of our own. We let them live and let live without governmental interference. Or at least we used to.

The United States was never intended to be a socialist state in which wealth and benefits are redistributed by a central governmental power. That's just an absurd contention that you've nicely worded in a patriotic veneer.

Not everyone needs medical attention on a regular basis, but everyone needs somewhere to live, so is housing a right or a privilege?

Healthcare for everyone shouldn't even be a topic for discussion. There should be at least a minimal level for all, and if someone can afford to buy a higher level of coverage of benefits, then more power to them. But brownell has posed a very interesting corollary: what other needs do people have that we should provide? Now we're treading in socialism when we start this, but is it really so bad? And do we provide food for everyone?

I cannot speak for what happens in any other Country, but here, our government cannot run, manage, or oversee anything. They prove it over and over and over.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

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But at what cost?

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Are you kidding me? This is America, where you are responsible for yourself. The government is not your nanny, and shouldn't be expected to fix every problem that arises on the individual level. That is not why it exists, and the only reason it actually does those things is because people, like you, have realized that they can vote themselves benefits that are often better or more plentiful than they can, or are willing to, provide for themselves on their own.

We do take care of our own. We let them live and let live without governmental interference. Or at least we used to.

The United States was never intended to be a socialist state in which wealth and benefits are redistributed by a central governmental power. That's just an absurd contention that you've nicely worded in a patriotic veneer.

I'm going to attribute this comment to our age and marital status. I think when you become a husband and become a father and are in a position where you are forced to be worried about more people than just yourself, you'll feel differently on the topic.

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Originally posted by brownell

Not everyone needs medical attention on a regular basis, but everyone needs somewhere to live, so is housing a right or a privilege?

One problem at a time

A point I like to make on the subject: medical attention isn't a personal matter, its a community one. We've all heard the term pandemic, yes? When me and my untreated meningitis join you for the 7:00 showing of the new James Bond film, you'll sure as fuck wish I had the medical coverage I can't afford. And when I can't afford to take off work to stand in line at a shitty free clinic to get my aids test done, then I go out with your sister that night and bang her bare back, once again you'll wish there was a more convenient healthcare alternative. Diseases such as small pox only stay down if at least 90% of a population is vaccinated. Currently there are more than 47,000,000 Americans without health insurance. (Wait for it, this is the fun part) That is 15% of our population. 15%. With the economy on a downturn, every car factory and investment bank that goes under adds to that total. If this shit goes on for 4 or 5 years -- or gets worse -- I don't know. But I'd sleep better at night knowing I could get on a subway train without an oxygen mask.

As for the homeless, there are estimated 744,000 homeless people in the U.S. Sadly a lot of the vets. I think it is a right that every vet and their family should have a place to live. But 744,000 is a small number compared with 47,000,000. Again, one problem at a time.

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Originally posted by Great_Schlep

Healthcare for everyone shouldn't even be a topic for discussion. There should be at least a minimal level for all, and if someone can afford to buy a higher level of coverage of benefits, then more power to them.

This is what we have in the US. Anyone who needs life-saving care is given such care, regardless of their ability to pay. That stipulation is in the charter/mission-statements of most not-for-profit Hospitals in the US. There are thousands of free-clinics and programs under which disadvantaged people fall. The political blather that there is no safety net in the US is patently false.

If you get hit by a car, you're taken to a hospital and treated. You aren't left to rot in the street if you don't have insurance.

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

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I'm going to attribute this comment to our age and marital status. I think when you become a husband and become a father and are in a position where you are forced to be worried about more people than just yourself, you'll feel differently on the topic.

And I'm going to attribute this comment to your wanting something for nothing.

The government doesn't exist to provide for your peace of mind.

What you don't realize is that I'm actually worrying about more people than you are. I'm worrying about the freedom and economic prosperity of 300 million people. You're worried about 4.

You are right, if you are hit by a car they stabilize your body and stop any bleeding.

And that is where it stops. Any corrective procedures or rehabilitation or anything that is needed, well you are shit out of luck. Same goes with shit like Chemotherapy or any experimental treatments or whatever.

Bare-assed minimum.

And fuck you on the other front. It would cost 150 billion to provide healthcare to all Americans. In the last 8 years, we gave away 600 billion to Iraq and 750 billion to wall street. Make sure to take some math classes next Spring. That isn't going to bankrupt us. Nor has it bankrupted any other country in the world which has done it.

Again, the problem you have is one of perspective. You don't need to go to the doctor this week and you have to care for no one who might need to go to the doctor this week. And it would seem you come into contact with no human beings, so whatever germs and diseases they are rolling don't seem to scare you either.

And the government doesn't exist to provide for my peace of mind? Then what is 600 billion in defense spending for each year? What was the Patriot Act for? Why are they tracking and recording all of our phone conversations? for 1.4 trillion dollars in paid taxes, THEY SURE AS FUCK EXIST TO PROVIDE FOR MY PEACE OF MIND.

Or I want a fucking refund.

Government should not be involved with healthcare. Not only that, but I don't see why a person's employer should be involved either. I would prefer to seek healthcare on my own, like I am able to do with auto, homeowners and life insurance. You would have a choice rather than the one option offerred by your employer. I could research and determine on my own whether or not the coverage I choose is right for my personal situation.

I think that is what McCain is trying to do(remove the employer based healthcare system).

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Originally posted by hornithologist

Government should not be involved with healthcare. Not only that, but I don't see why a person's employer should be involved either. I would prefer to seek healthcare on my own, like I am able to do with auto, homeowners and life insurance. You would have a choice rather than the one option offerred by your employer. I could research and determine on my own whether or not the coverage I choose is right for my personal situation.

I think that is what McCain is trying to do(remove the employer based healthcare system).

won't work until the price comes down.

The problem with McCain plan is that people need to front $1000s in advance and then wait until tax time to get a credit or a refund. Some people just can't do that. And for good insurance, $5000 might not be enough. We play $400 a month for half of a Blue Cross Blue Shield plan. That is $4800. With my employer's contribution, that equals almost $10,000. My car insurance is $80 a month or $960 a year. My home insurance is $800 a year.

You really think health insurance is comparable? And do you have $10,000 you can shell out now in the hopes of a credit or refund later?

my $.02. i personally feel that the industry is what drives the cost of healthcare up and out of reach of low to middle class families. my experience with no insurance has shown me this. when i go to the doctor or ER for treatment, i receive a bill in the mail for $XX.00. then, the statement says, non insured discount and subtracts that amount from the bill, leaving me with a total bill of less than half of what it would cost me if insured. so it seems that the healthcare industry charges the insurance companies more, which is what drives up the cost of premiums to an unaffordable amount. there should be one charge, insurance or not. again, my $02 for what its worth.

I very much agree with that. I had a urological procedure that insurance wouldn't cover. $1000 for me. Had insurance covered it, it was $2000. WTF?

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

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won't work until the price comes down.

The problem with McCain plan is that people need to front $1000s in advance and then wait until tax time to get a credit or a refund. Some people just can't do that. And for good insurance, $5000 might not be enough. We play $400 a month for half of a Blue Cross Blue Shield plan. That is $4800. With my employer's contribution, that equals almost $10,000. My car insurance is $80 a month or $960 a year. My home insurance is $800 a year.

You really think health insurance is comparable? And do you have $10,000 you can shell out now in the hopes of a credit or refund later?

That is exactly the point. $10,000 a year is ridiculously high and needs to be addressed. New healthcare providers will be able to get into the market with competitive prices, ultimately bringing the overall price down. Also, your employer will be able to pay you more without having to provide healthcare.

The tax credit McCain is referring will address the the massive change in the overall system. I assume by your statement "we pay" you are talking family coverage. For a single person's policy, a $5,000 tax credit would cover it. I am assuming (don't know for sure) that you and your wife would each receive a $5,000 credit. By the way, why would the $10,000 need to be paid in one lump sum?

Those are good points. I don't know. I agree its insanely high. Problem 1 I have with McCain is that he is so busy yelling about what a bad person Obama is, he hasn't actually detailed anything he plans to do. I have no fucking idea what McCain's plan means. Only plan I've ever seen broken down was that shitty one to buy all the bad mortgages up. If that same line of thinking applies to all of his plans, I want no piece of any of them.

Problem 2, what does McCain actually plan to do about the cost of health care? He has been anti-regulation for years. It seems like someone is going to have to get off their ass and force the medical industry to get their shit together and quit gouging the insurance industry and the public.

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

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I'm going to attribute this comment to our age and marital status. I think when you become a husband and become a father and are in a position where you are forced to be worried about more people than just yourself, you'll feel differently on the topic.

That's really a foolish assumption, and frankly it stinks of the "selfishness" comment Obama made earlier this week, particularly since we (you and I) already had the discussion about whether Conservatives/Republicans or Liberals/Democrats are generally more charitable.

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

One problem at a time

I think you missed the point that even Schlep picked up on. It's a question of whether individuals, or the Government should be responsible for basic human needs.

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Originally posted by Great_Schlep

I cannot speak for what happens in any other Country, but here, our government cannot run, manage, or oversee anything. They prove it over and over and over.

So why would you trust them to manage a healthcare system, much less improve it?

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

He has been anti-regulation for years. It seems like someone is going to have to get off their ass and force the medical industry to get their shit together and quit gouging the insurance industry and the public.

It's the belief that Government involvement makes things tougher for businesses and drives up prices. You really can't argue against that... and AFAIK, it's the insurance industry and the public gouging the the medical industry, that started this problem, not the other way around.

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Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

I very much agree with that. I had a urological procedure that insurance wouldn't cover. $1000 for me. Had insurance covered it, it was $2000. WTF?

Wow ... that is messed up. Your situation also KPSTONER. Why is there 2 different prices? I think both of you, if you still have the paperwork, should call someone. I don't know, maybe the Better Business Bureau or something. If enough of us ask questions about things like that, maybe something can be done about it.

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Originally posted by hornithologist

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Wow ... that is messed up. Your situation also KPSTONER. Why is there 2 different prices? I think both of you, if you still have the paperwork, should call someone. I don't know, maybe the Better Business Bureau or something. If enough of us ask questions about things like that, maybe something can be done about it.

They change the charges because the insurance companies dictate TO PHYSICIANS the compensation rate for a particular procedure. Really, the numbers that physicians charge insurance companies are, in most instances, irrelevant since the insurance company has a set rate they have actuarialy calculated and assigned each procedure.

It's the typical insurer-provider battle that's been going on for years, and not just in the healthcare industry. Ever wonder why your car repairs cost less if you pay cash instead of using your insurance?

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

I very much agree with that. I had a urological procedure that insurance wouldn't cover. $1000 for me. Had insurance covered it, it was $2000. WTF?

In this instance, the physician charge to the insurance company is $2000, the charge to you is $1000, and the amount most insurances would pay had they covered it is likely in the $300-$500 area. It's shitty, but that's one of the advantages in being able to negotiate bulk prices (as the insurance companies do).

Quote:

Originally posted by mrdorkbutt

You are right, if you are hit by a car they stabilize your body and stop any bleeding.

And that is where it stops. Any corrective procedures or rehabilitation or anything that is needed, well you are shit out of luck. Same goes with shit like Chemotherapy or any experimental treatments or whatever.

Bare-assed minimum.

That's actually not true. The preform surgery if it is necessary, they fix broken bones, they hospitalize people and treat them until they're well enough to be responsibly medically released. Of course, bills will likely be sent for these services, but if they're not paid the hospital doesn't employ two guys named Vinnie and Sal to come to the person's house and pulverize them back into the shape they were in before.

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Originally posted by dorkass

And fuck you on the other front. It would cost 150 billion to provide healthcare to all Americans. In the last 8 years, we gave away 600 billion to Iraq and 750 billion to wall street. Make sure to take some math classes next Spring. That isn't going to bankrupt us. Nor has it bankrupted any other country in the world which has done it.

First, I'm not a fan of the spending on either of the programs you mentioned. Second, we've only been in Iraq 5 1/2 years. And these expenditures in and of themselves aren't going to bankrupt the country, providing social benefits for all most certainly will erode both the fiscal health of the nation as a whole and individual freedoms on the personal level. When those social benefits continue to expand, as they are wont to do, and you seemingly agree with, they only further exacerbate the problem.

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Originally posted by dickbutt

Again, the problem you have is one of perspective. You don't need to go to the doctor this week and you have to care for no one who might need to go to the doctor this week. And it would seem you come into contact with no human beings, so whatever germs and diseases they are rolling don't seem to scare you either.

You're so off base it's laughable. I have the latest in a series of recurring doctor appointments on Monday, as a matter of fact. I've suffered as much as the average person my age, and likely have had more out-of-pocket health-related costs than the average person my age.

I don't have a job and for the better part of the last year have been paying ~400 monthly for continued health insurance from my previous employer, as they're obligated to offer for 18 months after termination. Upon expiration of those benefits I've been entirely uncovered since. Not an ideal situation, yet I'm still able to distance myself from my individual situation to realize that what would benefit ME the most in the short term is horrible for the country in the long term.

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Originally posted by gaysexbuttguy

And the government doesn't exist to provide for my peace of mind? Then what is 600 billion in defense spending for each year? What was the Patriot Act for? Why are they tracking and recording all of our phone conversations? for 1.4 trillion dollars in paid taxes, THEY SURE AS FUCK EXIST TO PROVIDE FOR MY PEACE OF MIND.

Your peace of mind, as provided by military might, is only a ancillary benefit of them performing one of the very few actual legitimate functions of a government, defense of its borders. The military doesn't exist to make the citizens of the country feel safe, it exists to protect the nation from foreign aggressors. Of course, we've expanded that role to one of international policeman, which is a massive waste, IMO, especially lacking any real centralized foreign enemy, but that's a topic for another thread.

The Patriot act is nothing more than a usurpation of individual freedom under the guise of "protection from terrorism" and is an abortion as a piece of legislation. It was ram-rodded through congress under the false premise instilled in the minds of the idiotic masses that any opposition to it was not only unpatriotic, but that they were a supporting terrorism.

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Originally posted by dickypoopyass

Or I want a fucking refund.

Don't worry, you'll get one as soon as congress reconvenes. Because when the economy stagnates all these socialist governmental spenders, who find it fit to steal from the populace in the form of taxes, conclude the people back their money so that they can spend it is the best way to restart a stagnated economy.

Of course, that line of thinking is in itself a contradiction, but that's not much of a problem for the average politician.

You are wrong and tragically misguided. A nation should take care of its people. Again, most of the world that can afford to has figured this out already.

That said, fucking with my name like that was funny. More than I expected from a flyers fan.

I'm sure you'll go back to disappointment horribly with your next post.

@ EL - $400 a month for continual health care??
is that what the fees for your coverage cost? or was that the costs of your treatment?

$400 a month is not uncommon here for a decent medical plan...