Controversial Opinions You Have..

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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There are lots of laws that the majority of the population don't agree on, and didn't get to vote on, but are still laws. Take speed limits and seat belt laws for example.

As for Christian states not wanting gay marriage, fine...those Christians don't have to marry someone of the same sex.


Just because someone chooses not to believe in something, doesn't mean it shouldn't be law. There are a lot of Americans who believe that Blacks shouldn't have the same rights as Whites, yet there are laws in place to ensure they do....why??? Because it's the right thing.

Speed limit and seat belt laws are designed to protect people from danger and themselves how is that comparable to gay marriage? IS it dangerous to themselves and/or others?

As far as the black or white thing, i really don't want to hear any of it. My ancestors came to America from Ireland as slaves and I am thankful for them giving me the opportunity to better my self and have taken full advantage of it. I lived in poverty as a child and worked 3 part time jobs so i could finish high school to be able to join the Marines and server my great country. I did not have a car in high school i had to walk to the nearest bus stop which was close to 2 mile from my house only to get home in time to changes clothes and run to work which was about 4-5 mile from the low-income apartment my disabled mother and i shared. I am a decorated honorably discharged veteran who proudly served. I currently have a Bachelor of Science degree and currently working on a Associates in Criminal Justice. My Children live very nice brick home and go to great schools and have every opportunity to grow and become healthy well-adjusted PRODUCTIVE members of society. I took what was offered to me as an American (which btw isn't much)and did something with it. the majority choose to take what is offered to them and squander it or waste their opportunity and then whine, piss and moan because they don't get another one and how society owes them for their mistakes. Life is hard no matter your skin color, but making excuses for your failures and short comings is not this countries responsibility
The race card thing is overplayed enough as it is. Anyone that doesn't feel they are treated fairly enough by this country is free to go back to the ancestral home at any time irregardless of their color or ethnicity.

What is Canada's stance on gay marriage?

So my examples of laws that some people don't like has nothing to do with making a different law that people don't like, but your rambling about your life growing up has everything to do with equal rights?

I simply was trying to say that there are many laws, whether its traffic related, equal rights related, or mineral right related that people don't agree with, yet they are laws. I never once tried to insinuate that you don't believe in equal rights for whites and blacks, and I never suggested that whites and blacks don't have equal rights...they do. Whether or not they have have the same opportunities is a different matter; but before you start preaching at me, I should say that I believe opportunities are what you make of them...not whats given to you.

All I am trying to say is that straights and gays in 90% off america do not have equal rights, and try as they might, a gay couple in Texas has zero opportunity to get married, but yet Catholics, Hindu, Muslim, even Satan worshipers and atheists have the right.

In Canada gay marriage is protected and allowed under federal law...with one caveat. No minister, priest, authorized official, or justice of the peace has to preform a gay marriage ceremony if they don't wish to. So sure...many of the churches have banded together and made it a policy not to wed gays, but there are plenty of other options. Once legally married, there is no legal difference between a gay marriage and a straight marriage.

I am wondering if your hand ever gets tired from patting yourself on the back ? A dozen or more these " poor me's " and it goes beyond making a point and into wicked self promotion.

I am simply in awe of such an attitude. Wanna hear my equally sad stories of personal and family hardship ? You won't. Such a resume of "poor me's " however anonymous, is rather hard to take and strongly suggests that your opinion is greater than that of others.

Which it isn't, so give that hand a rest.

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Originally posted by firereign

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Speed limit and seat belt laws are designed to protect people from danger and themselves how is that comparable to gay marriage? IS it dangerous to themselves and/or others?

As far as the black or white thing, i really don't want to hear any of it. My ancestors came to America from Ireland as slaves and I am thankful for them giving me the opportunity to better my self and have taken full advantage of it. I lived in poverty as a child and worked 3 part time jobs so i could finish high school to be able to join the Marines and server my great country. I did not have a car in high school i had to walk to the nearest bus stop which was close to 2 mile from my house only to get home in time to changes clothes and run to work which was about 4-5 mile from the low-income apartment my disabled mother and i shared. I am a decorated honorably discharged veteran who proudly served. I currently have a Bachelor of Science degree and currently working on a Associates in Criminal Justice. My Children live very nice brick home and go to great schools and have every opportunity to grow and become healthy well-adjusted PRODUCTIVE members of society. I took what was offered to me as an American (which btw isn't much)and did something with it. the majority choose to take what is offered to them and squander it or waste their opportunity and then whine, piss and moan because they don't get another one and how society owes them for their mistakes. Life is hard no matter your skin color, but making excuses for your failures and short comings is not this countries responsibility
The race card thing is overplayed enough as it is. Anyone that doesn't feel they are treated fairly enough by this country is free to go back to the ancestral home at any time irregardless of their color or ethnicity.

What is Canada's stance on gay marriage?

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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I hear you, and get it. However I guess my reasoning is slightly different. You as a single straight male can make the choice to get married or not (providing you have the opportunity); me as a single gay woman doesnt get to make that choice if I live in one of the 43 states that don't allow gay marriage....the choice is already made for me.

My question to you: Why is it that you could not be happy with a Civil Union which gives you the same rights as a married couple without the title?

Everything in life has some sort of title that is associated with it - for better or for worse. Should the WNBA just simply be called the NBA? The athletes work just as hard as their male counterparts, but they are not men. So they are in a different league. I completely agree with you that regardless of sex, any two people should be able to live a happy, content life together. I also agree with you that they should be given the same advantages as the prototypical male-female couple. My only disagreement is that since the couple is of the same sex, their title should be different as per the definition that has stood the test of time.

I'm going to go way out on a limb and just say,

Monks need more power.

Quote:

Originally posted by jaycjayz

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My question to you: Why is it that you could not be happy with a Civil Union which gives you the same rights as a married couple without the title?

Everything in life has some sort of title that is associated with it - for better or for worse. Should the WNBA just simply be called the NBA? The athletes work just as hard as their male counterparts, but they are not men. So they are in a different league. I completely agree with you that regardless of sex, any two people should be able to live a happy, content life together. I also agree with you that they should be given the same advantages as the prototypical male-female couple. My only disagreement is that since the couple is of the same sex, their title should be different as per the definition that has stood the test of time.

Because, two people who make a commitment to each other in front of their friends, family, and yes...even god in some cases, and exchange vows, is a marriage. Why should it matter if they are gay or straight? Because that word, "marriage" is important. If I accept the term Civil Union it means that I accept to be treated differently. It means that I'm ok with not being granted the same rights and freedoms as someone else, simply because I'm gay.
As I said before, definitions change and evolve all the time...so why can't the word marriage?

I think people need to remember something. These are opinions, and as such, cannot possibly be wrong. An opinion may or may not have some grain of fact contained within, but at the end of the day, they are simply the viewpoint of the person expressing it. You are more than welcome to disagree with it, and form an opinion of your own, but please don't label anyone else's opinion as wrong.

Quote:

Originally posted by F1098

I am wondering if your hand ever gets tired from patting yourself on the back ? A dozen or more these " poor me's " and it goes beyond making a point and into wicked self promotion.

I am simply in awe of such an attitude. Wanna hear my equally sad stories of personal and family hardship ? You won't. Such a resume of "poor me's " however anonymous, is rather hard to take and strongly suggests that your opinion is greater than that of others.


Which it isn't, so give that hand a rest.


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My opinion is just that my opinion don't like fine by me, as far as patting myself on the back, hell no i never get tired of it i have came a long way from where i started and without excuse. I have had ups and downs as everyone has. I don't feel the poor me thing as i am very accomplished and successful in my life and it wasn't due to a hand out or a freebie. Yes like everyone else That works and pays taxes that support the underprivileged way of life i feel my opinion is more important.

Once again Sugarpie you have compared apples to oranges. Gay rights is not a religion as is Satanism, Hinduism etc. and so forth, it's a choice as is the right for each an every state to determine if they allow it or not.

To be quite honest i think there are far more important things going on in the world than gay rights such as immigration which is bankrupting the US through social programs and hand outs, not to mention the steady incline in unemployment, rising inflation on the things needed everyday by the human race; sanitation, drinkable water, healthcare, housing etc. More serious problems than anything else at the moment, not that gay rights isn't important. being able to get married and not be able to get a job or health care or food would seem more important to humans, but our state and federal governments spends many of hours, days and weeks on issues like gay marriage which honestly are not important to keeping this country going and the MAJORITY of citizens happy, healthy and prosperous. Majority ruling is how a democracy works.
I have no hatred for gays, lesbians, bisexuals, transsexuals, my wife's aunt is a lesbian and my stepson is gay.
They attend rallies and parades for gay rights, but also know gay rights is like every other right out there it's not going to happen over night and somethings are far more pressing.
Expecting gay rights to be put before the health and well being of all people is selfish, irresponsible and very self righteous as if gays are more important and above equality...

I also think the Government need to stop making race an issue, they label us as African-American, Mexican-American, Asian-American, etc. on their forms and documents, Curious though as to why whites are not called Americans instead of Caucasian.

I never once said that gay rights were the most important agenda the US goverenment has before it. Obviously the big issue around the world right now is the economy. However, that doesn't mean that you don't stop talking about other issues such as the environment or gay rights. By not talking about other issues, you're ignoring them and hoping they go away. So I understand that governments and the public have priorities, but let me ask you...when is the right time to discuss it? There is always going to be something more important in some people's eyes.

Also, I agree...gay rights is not a religion...fine; then lets talk about the millions of gays who are religious...who go to church...whatever church it might be, whatever religion they might belong to. If marriage was based solely on religion, why should they be denied the right to get married?

Look, neither one of us is going to convince the other, thankfully we live in counties that allow us to debate issues with passion. Countries that allow us the freedom to be who we are, and the right to improve our lives. It just sometimes seems like all those rights and freedoms don't quite apply to everyone, and that's not only disappointing to me, it's heartbreaking.

You want controversial. I think if you support gay marriage, you also have to support polygamy.

Think about it

1) Polygamy has as long a history as monogamy.
2) Isn't marriage with only two partners really discriminatory against bisexuals? Why should they have to choose?

I actually wish the government would stop doing marriages at all and just make us all contract into civil unions. Marriage is a religious thing, while the government thing called marriage is basically fancy contract law. We should divorce (pun intended) the two completely. Any two or more people who wish to enter into a contract should be able to and all should have the appropriate rights. This isn't rocket science.

BTW. DOMA and all of the mini-DOMAs state have been passing are bullshit and always have been. They violate Article IV, Section 1 but the courts have never had the balls to apply that portion correctly, preferring to muck about with the 14th Amendment.

I dont believe that (gay) marriage and polygamy are remotely similar. And I don't believe that they should be debated together. Gay marriage is no different then straight marriage, it is a vow before family, friends, and god if you chose, between TWO people.

While I don't oppose polygamy, it is an entirely separate issue.

One of my wife's mentors and professors is gay, he and his partner got married a few years ago and adopted a child, now as they are going through a divorce he is realizing a legal marriage while a fantastic idea at the time, has caused him nothing but pain.
He lost his home, has to pay alimony and child support plus maintain medical on their child. He has told my wife and myself many times being able to get married does not mean it's a good idea and since the divorce rate for gay couples is higher than straight couples that in itself creates a strong argument for not allowing marriage and in some states is really burdening an already overwhelmed court system. Not saying he's right or wrong, but that was his opinion. There is a lot of discussion over a gay divorce being different than a straight one because the couples are of the same sex, but i don't see that there should be anything different about it. If the law is expected to look beyond the sex of partners when they are married the same should apply to the divorce as well.
I feel for the guy it really sucks, apparently the man he married was in it just for this and nothing more.

I think it is disingenuous to try to make the two different. They are both redefinitions of what Western Civilization has determined is the standard definition of marriage. The arguments are all pretty much the same for either. And polygamy has a much stronger argument since it has existed all over the world, in every continent, for almost all of human history. Gay marriage, not so much. Honestly, you saying "between TWO people" really is not much different than someone else saying "between a man and a woman". It has just been determined that the gay marriage supporters do not want to have anything to do with the polygamy supporters. But then again, that is why I say my idea is controversial. I think all people should have the same rights, not just gay or straight.

And on another topic, I find it funny that many of the same people who support government control of health care also think the government shouldn't be able to tell you not to do drugs. The two are not separable. If the government gives you health care, then the government (and by extension anyone who votes) can control what you do with your body since it now has a vested interest in the cost of your health care. If the government can not control your decisions about your body, then they should not provide your health care.

Quote:

Originally posted by firereign

I feel for the guy it really sucks, apparently the man he married was in it just for this and nothing more.

One thing a lot of gays never realized was how much it changes the dynamic of relationships. That is not an argument against gay marriage, but a warning for those who are planning on running out and getting married at the first chance. Sometimes the idea of marriage is much better than marriage itself. But the legal ramifications stick with you for a long time.

So, bottom line is that gay marriage has all of the problems of hetero marriage. All of the legal problems, all of the problems of human relationships ( including children ) that are fractured by our human weaknesses. All of the problems that you say are so prevalent in gay marriages are common to the relationships that I see all around me.

So, big deal. As my Dad used to say, "...fine by me, now they can be miserable like the rest of us."

We look forward to having another mainstream problem in our lives.

Quote:

Originally posted by firereign

One of my wife's mentors and professors is gay, he and his partner got married a few years ago and adopted a child, now as they are going through a divorce he is realizing a legal marriage while a fantastic idea at the time, has caused him nothing but pain.
He lost his home, has to pay alimony and child support plus maintain medical on their child. He has told my wife and myself many times being able to get married does not mean it's a good idea and since the divorce rate for gay couples is higher than straight couples that in itself creates a strong argument for not allowing marriage and in some states is really burdening an already overwhelmed court system. Not saying he's right or wrong, but that was his opinion. There is a lot of discussion over a gay divorce being different than a straight one because the couples are of the same sex, but i don't see that there should be anything different about it. If the law is expected to look beyond the sex of partners when they are married the same should apply to the divorce as well.
I feel for the guy it really sucks, apparently the man he married was in it just for this and nothing more.

Is this a good time to ask about sheep

To the point of being satisfied with Civil Union status as opposed to full Marriage, the history of our country shows that that this
is foolish.

Remember how post civil war USA lived with "seperate but equal" for nearly a hundred years. This colossal fallicy was the basis of the civil rights legislation in the 60's.

Why repeat such bad history ? Don't we ever learn ?

Yes, and running a red light will earn you a traffic ticket.

Comments like this make me wonder what our image in society really is ? We run corporations, we die for our country, we contribute to our society, yet well meaning but rediculous caveats like this make me wonder if we aren't regarded as aliens in our own land.

Oh gosh.....marriage is a difficult thing. Yes, Dorothy, it really is, and we find it as rewarding as you probably do too.

Quote:

Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

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One thing a lot of gays never realized was how much it changes the dynamic of relationships. That is not an argument against gay marriage, but a warning for those who are planning on running out and getting married at the first chance. Sometimes the idea of marriage is much better than marriage itself. But the legal ramifications stick with you for a long time.

Quote:

Originally posted by firereign

One of my wife's mentors and professors is gay, he and his partner got married a few years ago and adopted a child, now as they are going through a divorce he is realizing a legal marriage while a fantastic idea at the time, has caused him nothing but pain.
He lost his home, has to pay alimony and child support plus maintain medical on their child. He has told my wife and myself many times being able to get married does not mean it's a good idea and since the divorce rate for gay couples is higher than straight couples that in itself creates a strong argument for not allowing marriage and in some states is really burdening an already overwhelmed court system. Not saying he's right or wrong, but that was his opinion. There is a lot of discussion over a gay divorce being different than a straight one because the couples are of the same sex, but i don't see that there should be anything different about it. If the law is expected to look beyond the sex of partners when they are married the same should apply to the divorce as well.
I feel for the guy it really sucks, apparently the man he married was in it just for this and nothing more.

Just because a divorce is nasty and awful and hard on the pocketbook doesn't mean that gay couples should be prevented from getting married in the first place. I don't need the government to protect me from a nasty break-up. You might as well say that marriage shouldn't be allowed period...for anyone, gay or straight. A civil union break-up could still end up in court, so there is no difference in saving court resources.

Quote:

Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

I think it is disingenuous to try to make the two different. They are both redefinitions of what Western Civilization has determined is the standard definition of marriage. The arguments are all pretty much the same for either.

They may be a similar argument in terms of trying to redefining marriage, but they are a completely different definition, and thus a completely different debate.

Quote:

Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

Honestly, you saying "between TWO people" really is not much different than someone else saying "between a man and a woman".

Exactly my argument in support of gay marriage.

Quote:

Originally posted by rocknthefreeworld

It has just been determined that the gay marriage supporters do not want to have anything to do with the polygamy supporters.

I think there is a percentage of gays that just want to distance themselves from the polygamists simply because its too controversial, but mostly I think its just because they feel that it is a different argument and a different battle that needs to be fought.