"Sexual assault is a bunch of hooey"....George Will

So you, as a victim, want George Will to be raped because he said something stupid? That's... Okay.

And not once have you suggested anything to stop rape. I've specifically asked you in this thread what you want to do to stop rape. But all you do is say that people you don't like shouldn't be allowed to express their opinions, or how we're wrong for actually suggesting ways to stop rape.

So, as the victim, what do you want to do to stop rape? You haven't suggested anything. I'm all ears. Give one suggestion.
Right now, all you're saying is that "rape needs to stop, because I was a victim." But, you're the only one in this discussion that hasn't at least suggested a general idea to help stop rape. You just keep saying that it needs to be stopped.

Will arguing against and diminishing the rape culture make rape and sexual assault stop, instantly, tomorrow? No. Nothing will. But at least we're suggesting ways to get it to decrease significantly in the future. A psychopathic rapist will rape regardless. But you can prevent a majority of assaults by removing the ignorance that allows people to "turn" into rapists.






Again, Bangledesh says to no one in particular.

I'm coming off a lot more hostile than I am, I apologize.

But I just think that if you're going to argue for a solution, or for a debate about how to end sexual assaults, or whatever, you should contribute solutions or ideas to that debate and discussion. Instead of just tell everyone else that they're wrong for trying.

Male rape is no where near as high but it's a lot higher than I thought and a lot are not reported http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rape_by_gender some statistics....

Women are not just the victims.....

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Originally posted by sumo999

Male rape is no where near as high but it's a lot higher than I thought and a lot are not reported[Link] some statistics....

Women are not just the victims.....

No one is saying otherwise, mate.
But thanks for reminding us that it is an issue that doesn't have just one face.

You're right I haven't mentioned once about how to stop rape...I've mentioned it 6 times.

Post #31

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I never said that. I said that we don't need to convince people that its a problem...we all know its a problem. George Will knows its a problem, he just thinks that its being blown out of proportion. Why educate people on something that we all know exists? We need to be educating people on how to stop it.

Post #34

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Look...I think you're misunderstanding me. I believe that rapists and rape culture and people who believe that rape isn't a big deal need to be educated. But that is not what I was originally posting about in this thread. I said that his opinion on the matter was meaningless, because he is so far removed from the problem, and also because he essentially claimed that sexual assault doesn't exist. Because of this his comments only served to cast doubt on a problem that everyone knows exists. Yes...we need to have a debate or discussion on why rape is bad, and how to change peoples views who don't think rape is bad, and how to prevent rape. But we don't need to have a debate on whether or not sexual assault and rape on college campuses exists.

Post #37

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You haven't read a fucking thing I've said. I've said time and time and time again, my response is not "don't rape" My response is we don't need a debate to tell us rape is bad, we need a debate on WHY its bad and how to stop it.

Post #60

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Talk all you want about not wishing something on someone that you yourself wouldn't go through, and debate over this and that and the other thing...write your articles, your blogs, your forum posts, but until you've been a victim your opinion isn't as important as someone who has.

Yeah, yeah, you're all going to say that everyone's opinion is important and that excluding someone's opinion just because they are't a victim is wrong, but a victim has lived it and has an experience and point of view that nobody else has. A victim fights for change, they want education, and new/revised laws and they want it now.

Listening to people like George Will and the debate that he's starting about whether rape really is at problematic levels or not is pointless. It doesn't serve a purpose for a greater discussion on rape and how to stop it, all it does is it causes people from both sides of the argument to keep arguing about whether or not rape is at epidemic levels, and how stupid Will is. All I've heard since Will wrote his column is how out of touch he is, and dumb he was for making those comments, I haven't heard any discussion about new education programs to help prevent rape. We're having the wrong discussion post Will's comments, and that is the problem whenever someone like him says something like this. Yeah...it brings all kinds of attention to how stupid it is to think that rape isn't at problematic levels, but it does nothing to solve the problem of rape.

I'm not saying that because I'm a victim I have all the answers, but me and others like me seem to be the only ones who want to start the discussion on how to stop rape...everyone else wants to point fingers at Will and say how ridiculous he is.

Quote:

Originally posted by sumo999

Male rape is no where near as high but it's a lot higher than I thought and a lot are not reported[Link] some statistics....

Women are not just the victims.....

I never once said or implied that women were the only victims.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

You're right I haven't mentioned once about how to stop rape...I've mentioned it 6 times.

Post #31
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Post #34
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Post #37
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Post #60
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Well, this is fun.

Arguing for better education is what we've been saying the entire time.
No one has been suggesting that we need to debate whether or not rape is a real thing. You took George Will's comments and focused on them, while everyone else took Will's comments and tried to address the larger issue through his ignorance. We've explicitly said numerous times that we need to educate people, and remove the ability for rape culture to exist.
Your response was that we don't get it. You've been arguing against something no one is suggesting. Because we're looking beyond that single individual's stupidity into the larger issue.
And, several of your highlights are responses reiterating or agreeing with my comments while trying to still distance yourself from something no one agreed with to begin with.

That being said, huzzah! Finally!

Fuck George Will and his lame-minded ilk. Boo for rape culture! And bully for anti-rape education!

I have been discussing from day 1 that George Will's comments were not valid because 1) They're not true and 2) Even when debated by people who believe rape is bad, don't address the problem of how to fix the rape problem. And you guys have been saying that the argument and discussion proving Will wrong is necessary and that educating people that Will is wrong is important.


Remember, We are discussing Will's comments that Sexual Assault is a "bunch of hooey."

Quote:

Originally posted by omuh

The best tactic with those guys isn't to silence them but to make them understand how wrong they are.

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Originally posted by Bangles

I just don't see how or why someone would want to exclude the people who are on the wrong side of an opinion from debating it. They're exactly the ones that need to be included and educated and have their erroneous opinions tested and challenged and disproved. So that they can learn why they were wrong and show others that they were wrong. So they can be on the correct side. So they can be changed.

Quote:

Originally posted by Omuh

Because there are still people out there thinking these aren't facts. And if you silence this, they will continue to do so.
Especially with the rape issue because there are tons of people thinking either rape isn't something serious or thinking a lot of actions aren't really assault while they really are.

Quote:

Originally posted by Omuh

It's not about this guy, it's about the thousands of people who still think rape isn't happening or isn't an issue. Those are the ones who need to be educated and proving a guy like him wrong will perfectly help in that matter.

Yes, education is important, but not educating people that rape is an epidemic, or that George Will is an idiot. I've been arguing education to prevent rape, and you guys have been arguing education to convince people that rape and sexual assault is not a bunch of hooey.

I want to back up to first principles here. (Partly because I haven't read the whole thread, and partly because I think reading the whole thread won't make much difference...."

I agree with the free speech advocates: Nobody should be prohibited by law or whatever from speaking their mind.
I also agree with SP: When people who are empirically wrong are given equal footing on subjects that have been settled (climate change, for example), it's not in the public good.

If you meet a person who is anti-climate change, and who argues that governments should do nothing because it's all a hoax, then you've met someone who has been so influenced by false information, spoken by its advocates, that has no basis in fact as to be irrelevant, that I can understand why we might perfer they not have a voice in the public sphere. It's honestly a life-and-death issue for our species. You can't get more dire than that. I get it.

But I also get that we probably shouldn't have some central authority decide what are and are not acceptable topics for debate. I hope I don't have to explain why having some central/governmental authority decide on such issues would be problematic.

In sum, it's a thorny question. I think we should probably let minority viewpoints speak their mind, but I also think that we should encourage relentless mocking of idiotic viewpoints, to the point where people positing them should be embarrassed to publicize idiotic views. That's a terrible modern day version of Solomon's splitting the baby, but it's the best my stupid head can come up with at this hour.

Semi-related:
Sorry, Miss USA: Self-Defense Is Not The Solution To Sexual Assault

Because, I guess since women are usually in a relaxed state before being assaulted (due to being familiar with the assailant) they are incapable of defending themselves.

It's not a solution (the solution lies in preventing would-be rapists from developing into rapists) however, I think self-defense and the properly trained use of a weapon (fists, elbows, and knees; pepper spray; baton; knife; gun; taser, sap, etc) is a solid step towards rejecting the apparent idea (unless I'm missing something) that women will just be a victim until rapists stop existing.

And that sounds... pretty close to blaming the victim, but it's not. It doesn't matter if a woman is able to fight her attacker off or not, she is still a victim of assault. But, given the opportunity and the physical ability (body doesn't lock up from fear, not immediately suppressed, etc) to fight back, I think it would be better to fight back violently and aggressively rather than not. Maybe prevent the assault from progressing further.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

...

I never once said or implied that women were the only victims.

My statement wasn't aimed at any one...

But when ever anyone talks about rape everyone automatically thinks it's a female only problem....

Ever happen to you sumo ? Something you could really add to the conversation ?

George Will is a douche

Bangles-- I agree that it's most important for society as a whole to try and change whatever it is with "us" that makes people give in to immoral/inappropriate/sadistic fantasies and think or act in a way that anyone from any gender is put in a situation where they can be or are used in any sort of harmful way be it emotionally or sexually. I believe society is largely, across the whole world, it seems, largely desensitized to how what they do could and does truly affect other people. True empathy is becoming a thing of the past. People don't only act on these impulses because they just want to, the second part of that is that they can't imagine or comprehend how what they do is impacting others on any sort of level. The other persons feelings aren't real. I can't say I'm smart enough to know what any solution would be... How do you make people care? It's sad though. And scary.

Some people just don't care about how their actions effect others lives. You can't make them care. They either think they won't get caught or don't care if they get caught. This goes for all types of crimes--rape, murder, robbery etc. How does you murdering someone effect their loved ones? They don't give a shit! How does you robbing someone effect their sense of security? They don't give a shit! You can't make them give a shit. They lack the mental complicity to be compassionate and sympathize with others. When you see a rapist or robber in jail or going to jail showing remorse then it is because they are sorry they lost their ability to rape and rob some more. Not because they give a shit about you or your family. You cannot change this mentality. They also don't believe in a after life. Really it is extreme, narcissistic way to look at life. A good reason many are in and out of jails all their lives. Then you have those suckers that plead to left them out of jail--oh they made a mistake. Everything has now become--we all make mistakes waaaahhh. Well most people don't make rape, murder and robbery mistakes. Then you have prison over crowding excuses for letting the morons out....

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

And that sounds... pretty close to blaming the victim, but it's not. It doesn't matter if a woman is able to fight her attacker off or not, she is still a victim of assault. But, given the opportunity and the physical ability (body doesn't lock up from fear, not immediately suppressed, etc) to fight back, I think it would be better to fight back violently and aggressively rather than not. Maybe prevent the assault from progressing further.

Women taking self defense courses or arming themselves is not blaming the victim. In a perfect world, where everyone is honest and rape and assault no longer exist, then fine. Until that day comes, taking precautions makes perfect sense. It's not your fault if someone breaks into your house but you still lock the door when you leave, right?

I think the definition of rape has changed over the years. When I went to college way back in the sixties rape was really defined as ripping the clothes off,
smashing in the face, sending to the hospital type violence. Back then women didn't drink like they do today and lose control of their thought processes.
I'm not so sure us guys were really much different then as now. Male biology is still male biology. Morals in general where much stronger. We still
pressed the issue with the girls and got many "nos" before we got anywhere. But that didn't mean we gave up. We might have been even more forceful
then today. But in return the women mostly stayed in control.

Sometimes to try to protect the women who have less self control today with the general lack of morals, alcohol flowing everywhere, etc. rape is being
defined as anything less than the woman pulling the guy into bed. I don't think that's a reasonable expectation. Down through history men have pursued
women, not the other way around. It's pretty much base on human biology. Tough to change biology unless you medicate every man to eliminate their
natural urge.

I have a son in college right now. He behaves himself, but seems to do OK with the ladies. He says that outright physically violent send to the hospital
type rape is pretty rare. He says sex is readily available after a date or two. There are exceptions, but not a whole lot. You just try a different girl, if
one is not interested. The problem seems to be general lack of morals, media permissiveness, easy availability of alcohol and drugs. Are the guys
supposed to be counselors and psychologists and try to determine when the girl has one to many? Not a reasonable expectation. Get rid of guns
and you probably lower the homicide rate, tighten up morals and get rid of alcohol around campus and you lower the practice of sex.

George Will may not have it all right, but blaming the college guys is getting old and not the answer, nor in most cases the real problem.

If a drunk woman says no and you do it anyway, it's called rape. Consensual drunk sex is not rape, having sex with someone who doesn't consent is rape. It's really that simple.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

I think the definition of rape has changed over the years.

Yeah...its still defined by having sex with someone who says no.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

When I went to college way back in the sixties rape was really defined as ripping the clothes off, smashing in the face, sending to the hospital type violence.

So the hundreds of thousands of rapes that were committed by family members, close family friends, and acquaintances that were non violent really weren't rape? Are you honestly saying that?

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

Back then women didn't drink like they do today and lose control of their thought processes.

Im only going to respond to this once, even though you mention it several times...If she says no, its rape. Even if she says no 100 times, and then as you say "pressed the issue" and she eventually says yes...its still rape.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

I'm not so sure us guys were really much different then as now. Male biology is still male biology. Morals in general where much stronger. We still
pressed the issue with the girls and got many "nos" before we got anywhere. But that didn't mean we gave up. We might have been even more forceful
then today.

Yeah...thats pretty much the definition of rape.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

Sometimes to try to protect the women who have less self control today with the general lack of morals, alcohol flowing everywhere, etc. rape is being
defined as anything less than the woman pulling the guy into bed.

I knew the slut shaming would start soon enough. So a guy is allowed to go out and have a good time, have some drinks, but the woman isn't? The guy shouldn't be held to the same moral guideline when impaired as the woman is? Since when does drinking and getting drunk mean that a woman wants sex? I've had some drinks before, I've been pretty drunk, but never have I lost control to the point that if some guy stuck his penis inside me, I wouldn't know it, and wouldn't be able to comprehend that I don't like it. And If I was passed out and someone had sex with me...well just because I couldn't say no, thats not ok either. I seriously feel like I'm talking to a 14 year old boy, not a grown man.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

Down through history men have pursued women, not the other way around. It's pretty much base on human biology. Tough to change biology unless you medicate every man to eliminate their natural urge.

Oh I'm sorry...you have urges...why didn't you say so? With this new evidence brought to light, I totally reverse my beliefs, and think that rape is A-OK...go out and rape all the women you need to satisfy your urges.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

I have a son in college right now. He behaves himself, but seems to do OK with the ladies. He says that outright physically violent send to the hospital
type rape is pretty rare.

Yeah, he's right...because most rapes are committed by someone the victim trusts...not some guy who breaks in wearing a ski mask. I seriously am concerned about your son at this point, because you seem to think that as long as the girl isn't hurt during rape, that its not really rape, or at least not that bad. You're doing a huge dis-service to your son if he thinks like you.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

He says sex is readily available after a date or two. There are exceptions, but not a whole lot. You just try a different girl, if
one is not interested. The problem seems to be general lack of morals, media permissiveness, easy availability of alcohol and drugs.

Again with the slut shaming? Just because a woman may enjoy sex does not mean its ok to rape her.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

Are the guys supposed to be counselors and psychologists and try to determine when the girl has one to many?

No, but they are supposed to act like decent fucking human beings.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

tighten up morals and get rid of alcohol around campus and you lower the practice of sex.

Seriously..the slut shaming is really getting old. Also...there is a HUGE different between "the practice of sex" and rape, although I'm not surprise that you can't see that, as you've pretty much said through out your post that its ok to rape a girl if she likes sex or has been drinking.

Quote:

Originally posted by kurtz1

blaming the college guys is getting old and not the answer, nor in most cases the real problem.

Well...rape against a woman is pretty hard to do without a guy so yeah...the college guy is the problem. But again...I'm forgetting that you think like a rapist, so you won't agree with anything I've had to say.

Quote:

Originally posted by jenngurl23

How do you make people care? It's sad though. And scary.

You get to them early. Something in these peoples lives have desensitized them and moulded them into the people they become later in life. I don't believe for the most part people are born evil or born lacking a moral compass that most of us have. Maybe they don't have parents that teach them wrong from right, maybe they were abused as children...I'm sure there are a multitude of reasons. Education needs to start in school day 1, if the parents aren't doing the job, then schools need to. Better programs need to be in place to identify and help children of abuse. Its going to be a learning curve for everyone, a massive change in how we raise our children has never been done on this sort of scale. It won't be perfect, but it will be a start.