Like I said earlier in the thread... In Sweden Unions aren't involved in politics (that I know of, I'm not that educated on that stuff) and they can still get shit done for the people they represent. So bullshit that the only way to make change happen is by backing politicians. Also, the only true power is political power? Try explaining that for Saddam's Iraq for instance.
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Poida 9 years ago
Quote:
Originally posted by AlthalusLike I said earlier in the thread... In Sweden Unions aren't involved in politics (that I know of, I'm not that educated on that stuff) and they can still get shit done for the people they represent. So bullshit that the only way to make change happen is by backing politicians. Also, the only true power is political power? Try explaining that for Saddam's Iraq for instance.
The Confederation, which gathers in total about 1,5 million employees, was founded in 1898 by blue-collar unions on the initiative of the 1897 Scandinavian Labour Congress and the Swedish Social Democratic Party, which almost exclusively was made up by trade unions.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Swedish_Trade_Union_Confederation
Allen_Bradley 9 years ago
Quote:
Originally posted by Sugarpie
Oh sure...the one time I don't quote you post, and you delete it.
I deleted it because I did not think it was appropriate to the discussion and I had drank several cocktails at that point and realized I was getting a little carried away.
paradise_50 9 years ago
Sugarpie wrote:
I guess my feeling is that the underlying environment isn't preventing unions from making sure their members have safe working conditions, make a fair wage, get a fair amount of time off, and receive benefits inline with the average worker. I don't see laws in place the prevent the union from doing their job. Maybe there is...I just don't see it. As I mentioned in my comments to EL above, if there were laws that prevent the union from doing their job, that prevented them from negotiating the highest pay possible for their members, then I would totally support unions being politically active, but I don't see any examples of that happening.
~~~~~~
Sugarpie I don't know if you live in Canada or the States. If you have been following US politics since 2010 closely (I'm one of those that do because I actually really care), you would know that between laws SCOTUS has passed and laws that GOP run states have passed, unions have been severely harmed in their ability to do what they do. You'd know that voter suppression is rampant. All you need to really know is that ALEC (http://www.alec.org/) (http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed) runs all Republicans. It tells them what legislature to bring up. Every single Republican body brings up the exact same bills at the same time. They are coached as to exactly what to say.
Lia, iirc, simply stated that unions are nothing more than Paks now. That is completely erroneous. But, for the sake of argument, what if that were all unions are? Would that in itself be bad? If that were true, it would be the only Pac on one side of the political debate. The "other side" has endless SuperPaks with endless invisible money. Now SCOTUS did away with all finance reform rules that took decades to put in place. They've completely gutted the voting rights act thus limiting people's ability to vote in several states. Why do you suppose they did that? Why DON'T they want women and people of color to be able to vote as freely as white men? What are they afraid of? Why have they made the "playing field" totally skewed to their side?
All of what has taken place since 2010 is an extremely rapid change of the political environment primarily at the state level, but also at the Federal level via SCOTUS rulings. You simply have to understand the only true power in any country is political power. As long as you don't feel personally effected, you might be OK with it all. I guarantee you their will come a time when you are personally effected by the changes taking place in the political environment.
Everything thing that came up via the civil rights movement and the women's movement is being yanked away...and all since 2010.
Whether is is apparent or not, the political environment at the time absolutely determines what can and can't be done. The more the side that deregulates industries while dominating what citizens can do...including what women can do with their own bodies...and now including Christian values (whatever that means. John Roberts two weeks ago stated that religious values should be part of the laws governing the land. Imagine that! So the five Catholic white men on the Supreme Court rule in unison 5-4 every time...and have publicly acknowledged they feel religion should be part of the laws of the land. This is completely counter to the Constitutions and the Bill of Rights...and yet, here we are).
I'll tell you a secret most people don't get at all. The REAL POWER is in the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court. Those people get life time jobs. Once they are their, they are rule for a generation. This is exactly why when Bill Clinton was president the GOP refused to let him fill vacancies at these levels. When George Bush got in he swamped them. Since Obama became president the same GOP strategy is in place. They won't let him fill Federal Court vacancies or even his own cabinet. There are still entire parts of the Federal Government that don't have any one leading them because the GOP won't allow them to be filled. That's why they want to impeach Obama for using Executive Orders, though he's done that far, far fewer times than all modern presidents. But when he does it...he needs to be impeached.
This is where "generational political power" comes from = who gets on Federal Courts and the Supreme Court. Politicians come and go. BUT, politicians decide these matters too. It truly does matter who is elected to office. It's all that matters because it's the only place anyone...including regular folks like me...have any chance of influencing the thrust of where we're headed as a nation.
And I'll tell you, the big dogs are kicking ass with all their money. SCOTUS has determined money = votes. Unbelievable but true. SCOTUS has decided that "corporations are people" and thus have the legal rights of a human being. SCOTUS has just determined that "closely held corporations don't have to abide by parts of laws they don't like" which means closely held corporations have MORE rights than human beings.
This is dangerous. If you think it isn't, they you simply haven't been personally affected yet. The ENVIRONMENT is dangerous. Already corporations are moving to get rid of gay people...and fire lesbians because it doesn't fit with their religious beliefs. I'm telling you Sugarpie, you will one day realize that your world will become impacted. You may have to become closeted. You may have to watch over your shoulder for others who will rat you out and thus ruin your career. This isn't conspiracy theory stuff...it's real and happening now.
I guess my feeling is that the underlying environment isn't preventing unions from making sure their members have safe working conditions, make a fair wage, get a fair amount of time off, and receive benefits inline with the average worker. I don't see laws in place the prevent the union from doing their job. Maybe there is...I just don't see it. As I mentioned in my comments to EL above, if there were laws that prevent the union from doing their job, that prevented them from negotiating the highest pay possible for their members, then I would totally support unions being politically active, but I don't see any examples of that happening.
~~~~~~
Sugarpie I don't know if you live in Canada or the States. If you have been following US politics since 2010 closely (I'm one of those that do because I actually really care), you would know that between laws SCOTUS has passed and laws that GOP run states have passed, unions have been severely harmed in their ability to do what they do. You'd know that voter suppression is rampant. All you need to really know is that ALEC (http://www.alec.org/) (http://www.alecexposed.org/wiki/ALEC_Exposed) runs all Republicans. It tells them what legislature to bring up. Every single Republican body brings up the exact same bills at the same time. They are coached as to exactly what to say.
Lia, iirc, simply stated that unions are nothing more than Paks now. That is completely erroneous. But, for the sake of argument, what if that were all unions are? Would that in itself be bad? If that were true, it would be the only Pac on one side of the political debate. The "other side" has endless SuperPaks with endless invisible money. Now SCOTUS did away with all finance reform rules that took decades to put in place. They've completely gutted the voting rights act thus limiting people's ability to vote in several states. Why do you suppose they did that? Why DON'T they want women and people of color to be able to vote as freely as white men? What are they afraid of? Why have they made the "playing field" totally skewed to their side?
All of what has taken place since 2010 is an extremely rapid change of the political environment primarily at the state level, but also at the Federal level via SCOTUS rulings. You simply have to understand the only true power in any country is political power. As long as you don't feel personally effected, you might be OK with it all. I guarantee you their will come a time when you are personally effected by the changes taking place in the political environment.
Everything thing that came up via the civil rights movement and the women's movement is being yanked away...and all since 2010.
Whether is is apparent or not, the political environment at the time absolutely determines what can and can't be done. The more the side that deregulates industries while dominating what citizens can do...including what women can do with their own bodies...and now including Christian values (whatever that means. John Roberts two weeks ago stated that religious values should be part of the laws governing the land. Imagine that! So the five Catholic white men on the Supreme Court rule in unison 5-4 every time...and have publicly acknowledged they feel religion should be part of the laws of the land. This is completely counter to the Constitutions and the Bill of Rights...and yet, here we are).
I'll tell you a secret most people don't get at all. The REAL POWER is in the Federal Courts and the Supreme Court. Those people get life time jobs. Once they are their, they are rule for a generation. This is exactly why when Bill Clinton was president the GOP refused to let him fill vacancies at these levels. When George Bush got in he swamped them. Since Obama became president the same GOP strategy is in place. They won't let him fill Federal Court vacancies or even his own cabinet. There are still entire parts of the Federal Government that don't have any one leading them because the GOP won't allow them to be filled. That's why they want to impeach Obama for using Executive Orders, though he's done that far, far fewer times than all modern presidents. But when he does it...he needs to be impeached.
This is where "generational political power" comes from = who gets on Federal Courts and the Supreme Court. Politicians come and go. BUT, politicians decide these matters too. It truly does matter who is elected to office. It's all that matters because it's the only place anyone...including regular folks like me...have any chance of influencing the thrust of where we're headed as a nation.
And I'll tell you, the big dogs are kicking ass with all their money. SCOTUS has determined money = votes. Unbelievable but true. SCOTUS has decided that "corporations are people" and thus have the legal rights of a human being. SCOTUS has just determined that "closely held corporations don't have to abide by parts of laws they don't like" which means closely held corporations have MORE rights than human beings.
This is dangerous. If you think it isn't, they you simply haven't been personally affected yet. The ENVIRONMENT is dangerous. Already corporations are moving to get rid of gay people...and fire lesbians because it doesn't fit with their religious beliefs. I'm telling you Sugarpie, you will one day realize that your world will become impacted. You may have to become closeted. You may have to watch over your shoulder for others who will rat you out and thus ruin your career. This isn't conspiracy theory stuff...it's real and happening now.
paradise_50 9 years ago
Althalus, you live in Sweden. You have a high tax rate and it comes back to you. You don't have voter suppression. You don't have courts making laws that tell women what they can do with their bodies.
Comparing how things work politically in Sweden to the USA is silly. They are totally different. To see how unions operate in Sweden with what is going on in the States is truly comparing apples to oranges.
Comparing how things work politically in Sweden to the USA is silly. They are totally different. To see how unions operate in Sweden with what is going on in the States is truly comparing apples to oranges.
Davey45 9 years ago
I misread the title on the main forums page. I thought this was a seven page thread about onions.
EricLindros, [Deleted], Poida find this awesome.
Althalus 9 years ago
Quote:
Originally posted by paradise_50Althalus, you live in Sweden. You have a high tax rate and it comes back to you. You don't have voter suppression. You don't have courts making laws that tell women what they can do with their bodies.
Comparing how things work politically in Sweden to the USA is silly. They are totally different. To see how unions operate in Sweden with what is going on in the States is truly comparing apples to oranges.
I think it's comparing how a union SHOULD work to how it shouldn't personally.
[Deleted] finds this awesome.
paradise_50 9 years ago
Althalus, In your country corporations aren't "people." They don't have the rights of people. You can easily state unions work the way they should in you country, but they don't have to deal with the government making them illegal. They don't have to deal with billionaires being able to buy politicians and SCOTUS unfettered like we do in the States. Again, it's comparing apples and oranges all due to the political environment within which unions operate.
Poida finds this awesome.
paradise_50 9 years ago
OK srsly Sugarpie. How the hell did you perfect that pole dancing move. That is fucking amazing! 
Poida 9 years ago
Quote:
Originally posted by Davey45I misread the title on the main forums page. I thought this was a seven page thread about onions.
It was originally meant to be but I couldn't edit the title.
Davey45 finds this awesome.
paradise_50 9 years ago
FYI for anyone the least bit interested in what we are dealing with in the States. Here's one of my weekly diaries I post at DailyKos. Unions or not, even though they are the only Pak pushing back, this is the way the rule of law is screwed with in the States. There is a reason I do this shit (it's shit I do admit...just like watching sausage being made they say).
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/11/1320782/-Kitchen-Table-Kibitzing-8-11-14-Against-Fracking-You-are-practically-an-enemy-of-the-state?showAll=yes
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/11/1320782/-Kitchen-Table-Kibitzing-8-11-14-Against-Fracking-You-are-practically-an-enemy-of-the-state?showAll=yes
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