Unions

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Originally posted by paradise

You stated that unions' "only objectives should be to make sure their members have safe working conditions, make a fair wage, get a fair amount of time off, and receive benefits inline with the average worker."

I ask you then, how do you believe this can happen without the underlying environment allowing for that? That's the part of unions backing candidates they believe will help them be able to do EXACTLY what you state is the only objectives unions should have! You have to have the matrix and bedrock that allows for that. If you aren't cogent of what is going on that controls the entire environment within which anything can happen, you won't understand how and why it all works.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

. As long as laws aren't in place that prevent the union from being able to provide their service to their members there really is no need for unions to be political. They may have the desire to be political, but there is no actual need.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

. I can't personally think of a law in place that prevents the union from doing their job...can you?

Quote:

Originally posted by Allen_Bradley

Without the blood shed by those who believed in a higher ideal, this would have never have come to pass. As a journalism student, I suggest you study the deaths of those who died while trying to form a Union at the Ford plant back in the thirties. True activism in it`s purest form and ideal. Those who were killed supported a higher ideal and made possible all of the benefits all workers in every occupation enjoy today.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Oh I totally admit that unions certainly were a badly needed thing at one time. And I agree that without them the working environment would look very different today. I'll even admit that in certain occupations they're still needed to some extent, but I also think that they just aren't as needed today as much as they once were. Unions make a lot of money, they make a lot of money for the people that run them, and for the people they back politically. They want to hang on to that money so they've morphed into "lobbyists for the working man" to remain relevant. They aren't the only ones that can fight for the common working man, they just want you to believe that. People are fucking lazy, they'd rather pay their dues and have the union fight government than do it themselves.

Quote:

Originally posted by Allen_Bradley

Actually there is. The government of Canada recently tried to pass a law stating that all unions must make public their expenditures. Now that would have allowed the public to see what I was getting for my pension or what was paid on my behalf for medical expenditures in total violation of my privacy.The bill passed, but the Supreme court made sure that it was watered down so my privacy would not be violated. The government wanted this bill passed so they could see how much money was being spent by unions for poitical activism. Did they ever pass a bill requiring that the expenditures of corporate lobby groups be made public? NO

Quote:

Originally posted by AB

As a journalism graduate, you have a lot to learn about labor relations in this country.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Yeah, I can see that being an issue, but that law wasn't passed so that the public could see your pension and healthcare expenditures, it was passed, like you say, to see how much unions contribute to political candidates....and the right thing happened, the Supreme court changed the law. As for having a law that requires corporate lobby groups expenditures be made public, yeah, it probably should happen. The entire political contribution system in Canada needs to be revamped, every Province has different rules, and every political party has a different opinion on what do. Personally I think corporate and union contributions shouldn't be allowed, and personal contributions need to have a cap.

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Originally posted by Allen_Bradley

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Point counter point Sugar. Who else would fight for the common working man or woman?

Quote:

Originally posted by AB

As far as the money issue, you have to remember that the Unions pay their own way. The members pay dues to support their executive and support the union.

Quote:

Originally posted by Allen_Bradley

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Counter point. Why should the unions have to make their expenditures public? They are privately funded. Does the government require that a non-publicly held corporation make their balance sheets and accounting ledgers be made public? No.....Does the government require that the law societies and other associations make their expenditures public? No.... So why, therefore, should a union have to disclose to the public, it's expenditures?

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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The common man and woman should be fighting for themselves...along side other common men and women. That is activism, not sitting on your couch hoping you union does the right thing.

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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And this is my major problem. If I get a job with and there happens to be a union, I'm forced to pay dues...which if I know its all going to help me, going into a reserve in case we go on strike, or in to a pension then I have no problem with it. But that isn't where the all the money is going. A lot of the money is going to political candidates that I may or may not support. I didn't get the job so I could support a politician, I got the job to feed, clothe, and house myself. Union dues should go towards supporting the member...period.

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Originally posted by Allen_Bradley

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Yeah ok, so let me know when standing on the corner on your soapbox makes a difference........

Quote:

Originally posted by AB

Yes you pay dues according to the Rand formula. And when you make the assertion that " A lot of the money is going to political candidates that I may or may not support" I ask you to back up this claim with facts, not just hearsay.....

Quote:

]Public-sector unions were some of the biggest donors to political parties, with teachers’ unions among the most generous. Like corporations, unions are allowed to exceed the $9,300 limit by giving individual donations through their local bargaining units. That has allowed the Ontario English Catholic Teachers Association to donate more than $64,000 — most of it going to the Liberals. Of that, the union’s Ottawa bargaining unit has been the most generous, donating $9,300 to each the Liberals and the NDP. Public elementary teachers have donated another $36,000 this year, mostly to the Liberals, while secondary teachers have given more than $50,000. District 12, the union’s Toronto bargaining unit, has donated the most, giving near the maximum to both the Liberals and the NDP. The district runs a separate political action committee working to “Keep Toronto Tory Free.”

Police officers have donated a total of $31,000 to political parties, with the OPP union donating slightly more to the Liberals than the Conservatives, while the Toronto Police union has given mostly to the Conservatives. The Police Association of Ontario has given evenly to both parties.

Private-sector unions also flexed their financial muscles, with workers in the construction trade donating more than $100,000 to political parties. Almost all of that came from the United Brotherhood of Carpenters and Joiners and virtually all of it went to the Liberals.

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Originally posted by Allen_Bradley

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And as a journalism graduate, you should have learned that your job is to report the facts. If you just want to spread your opinion you should become a columnist..... And all that money you spent on journalism classes is money wasted if you are out dueled by a common electrician
Next...

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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It does...every day. How else do you think women got the right to vote, segregation ended, gay marriage passed?

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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So you're going to sit there and tell me that union dues do not go towards political parties or specific politicians? C'mon....we know its happening. Maybe not with every single union, but its certainly happening.

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Originally posted by Allen_Bradley

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It took a collection of people to make that happen, organized people, Funny how that sounds like a union....

Quote:

Originally posted by AB

Hearsay my dear, like I said, give me the facts. The fact is that union members have a vote on where their money is spent. If a motion is passed to support a certain candidate or party, it is an expenditure that has to be voted on and passed by the membership. If you were not present at the meeting when the motion was issued and voted upon then you really are not involved in the process so, therefore, like a citizen who does not vote in an election, you have not become involved in the process..... It is the purest form of democracy....
Next.......

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Oh, I didn't realize I was working. In case you didn't know this, we're on a porn website on the internet...I'm allowed to have an opinion. Besides....where are your facts? Out dueled? Yeah ok...you win, do you feel better now?

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Originally posted by Sugarpie

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Yeah...except its not..

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

See above.

Quote:

Originally posted by AB

How do you think unions got started in the first place?

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Originally posted by Allen_Bradley

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We might be on a porn website but I am a union member and I am involved in the process so I know my facts. And yes you are allowed to have an opinion but, if you are looking for a job in journalism, the facts count, not your opinion......

Quote:

Originally posted by Allen_Bradley

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Really? What counts more than your vote in a democratically presented motion that is passed by a majority vote?
Next.....

Quote:

Originally posted by manoft

I worked for a union for many years. Our company union rep was anything but our representative. I had several mini strokes and could no longer perform my job. The union voted and were going to allow me to come back in a different position where i did not have to do as much of the bullwork as i did before.I was in agreement to take a pay cut for this position, but the human resourses department said no way to the drop in pay or transfer.In the long run my union rep did not stand up for me and fight for me so i am no longer employed so my union sold me out.All those years of monthly dues for nothing