Unions

Are they legit in this day and age? Would you join one? Why? If not why not?

Looking back on the past I've had more consistency penny wise working on union jobs with a union.

I mean workers unions.

Unions are much maligned these days, but to me it seems most problems boil down to either the union or the company not pushing hard enough for their side.

There's no union for my field, and I've worked a job where I could have used one. After I left for a better job, the state government had to investigate, intervene, and force the company to pay restitution to current and former employees. With a union, it may not have come to that. So, yeah, I'd join one and I think they still have a place today.

There's also the total independence people rely these days on to make themselves feel good, I'm not sure if that is a problem or not. It is actually because it separates and causes conflict.

Looks like United Parcel Service proves Unions can work well. Just so many corrupt failures of Unions in the past. Easy to let greed take over to where it brings down the company and there goes your job

Quote:

Originally posted by crazyivan69

Unions are much maligned these days, but to me it seems most problems boil down to either the union or the company not pushing hard enough for their side.

Corruption and greed, you said it right there.

I don't believe that unions have the strength that they used to have. I have never worked a union job, but think that I would if opportunity presented itself. I think, if done properly, they could be very useful in resolving some of the major conflicts that I've seen in several of my workplaces. It's been my experience that in most companies (large or small) that there is no loyalty by either side (management or employee). Upper management (in places I've worked) treats their employees like they are a number and not a person. Forcing mandatory overtime on employees (I think should be against the law), telling their workers several times a year that they are doing a great job and they buy them pizza, but when they ask for a raise the answer is always no. Showing little or no leniency with things like attendance (for those who don't abuse it). On the other side of that coin, employees take things like what is listed and come to work with the attitude of well, I know they don't give a shit about me, so I'm going to work just hard enough not to get fired. If you're clearly not trying, how do you expect to get raises, bonuses, etc. If you're constantly calling off or leaving early, then of course management is going to implement a "points" system. They do that to keep you from calling off once a week. My answer has always been, if I'm doing a great job, don't buy me food. Give me a raise and I'll buy my own food. If as management, you want to use this as an incentive once in a while then ok, but word it different. I believe that a little incentive, if done right (not a slap in the face incentive) can go a long way in keeping morale high (or at least medium-high?) and that the only way to reach this is through something like a union, where an employee can have a voice that's heard with compromise in mind, and not just the "well, if you don't like it, then there's the door" mentality that most upper management bring to the table.

Unions gave us the 40 hour work week. Unions gave us weekends. Unions caused there to be regulations in extremely dangerous jobs that had none before. If you look at all unions gave us they really did something. Most people now have no idea what it was like before unions. Most people have no idea that weekends and 40 hour work weeks and overtime pay ONLY came about because of unions. What I'm saying is what people now take for granted they truly don't know unions are the reason.

Unions are the ONLY thing that can pay for political candidates like all the billionaires and corporations in the USA do. They are the ONE and only counter to ALL of the massive money waged in campaigns by the other side.

Keep in mind SCOTUS on their own made corporations legally "people" with all the rights of human beings. (no case was brought to them...John Roberts' Supreme Court just decided this). Keep in mind SCOTUS in their recent Hobby Lobby ruling THEN made gave corporations MORE rights "as people" than actual human beings have. Think about that for a while. And keep in mind this is only the beginning of a very slippery slope. SCOTUS decided "closely held corporations" literally can cherry pick what part of laws they follow or don't. A closely held corporation is defined (currently) as any corporation where a minimum of 51% of the company is owned by 5 people. Most people think that would mean little corporations. NOPE. If you look at most HUGE corporate ownership you'll realize this is NOT true. The BIGGEST company on planet earth (WalMart) has 51% owned by the five Waltons. Really think about that. WalMart literally has more rights a "a person" that actual living human beings.

So, unions with all the various things folks can point to as problematic are the ONLY counter politically to the other side. And ask yourself this, have you seen companies and corporations do anything suspect and/or downright hideous? Now that it is legal for US corporations to open an office in a foreign country and just presto-chango declare they are no longer an American company but rather a company of that foreign country...to avoid ALL USA taxes...YET can still pump hundreds of millions on dollars into USA campaigns, do you really have to wonder if UNIONS have any real validity today?

Walgreens just decided to become an Irish company to avoid paying $4,000,000,000 in taxes in the USA even though their realized tax rate is 16% of profits. Do you pay more than 16% of your income in taxes? Do you think it is fair what 40 corporations have done = just what Walgreens wants to do? Do you realize that Exxon-Mobile, the company that makes more profits every year than any company in the history of the planet, gets $4,500,000,000 in corporate welfare every year from the USA? There are about 150 million USA citizens that pay taxes (those that don't are children, the very elderly on a small fixed income and the poor). That means EVERY ONE of us gives Exxon Mobile $25 bucks every year! Think about that the next time you fill up your vehicle. Every year you give Exxon Mobile a $25 tip because you love them so much. Boy oh boy...they sure need that.

Do you realize GE made over $40,000,000,000 in profits last year and paid 0% tax AND got corporate welfare on top of that? Did you know that? Hey, I work my ass off. I have my own business. I have a couple employees. Since I'm self-employed I have to pay double the rate as an employee towards Social Security every year. I pay 15.3% towards Social Security every year. My federal tax rate on my income is 28%. My state income tax rate is 7%...SO I pay 50.3% tax on my income every year.

So, ask yourself WHY does GE pay 0% tax? Why can Walgreens just declare they are an Irish company now to avoid paying 16% tax? Why do we give Exxon Mobile $4,5000,000,000 every year even though they are the most profitable company that has ever existed EVER?

Do you see something wrong here? Do you see how the 1% and corporations DON'T even come close to paying their fair share? Do you see why we have less and less money to pay for anything? And it only gets worse and worse.

UNIONS? They are all that's left to counter the other side.

I did state one thing incorrectly in my earlier comment. The very rich don't pay taxes either. Remember, they only pay taxes on "realized income." I'll use Mitt Romney as an example. He's worth well over a half billion dollars. His realized tax rate is 14%. He even stated so when he ran for president. That means if he sells off a bunch of stock, he is on the hook for 14% taxes on whatever profit that made. But hat happens ONLY if he sells the stock. Harry Reid was pissed at Romney because they are both Mormons and are supposed to give 10% each year of their income to the Church of Latter Day Saints. Mitt Romney hadn't done that in 11 years in a row BECAUSE he never had any "realized income" in all those years. That means he didn't pay one penny in taxes either. Will he ever pay taxes again? NO! Why not? Because it is really easy for him and all the 1%ers to never pay taxes and therefore NOT be part of helping the USA.

Say Mitt Romney wants to build an underground garage for 30 vehicles at his La Jolla home near San Diego (oh wait, he did that). Say it costs $10,000,000 to do so. Well, he cashes out $10 million in stocks. He should have to pay 14% on whatever profits those stocks made during the time he held them right? Well he pays nothing because he can write off the $10 million for "home improvements" done to his home. His tax rate then becomes 0%.

This is so easy. Any time Mitt needs some money, he "somehow decides" to simultaneously do something that is tax deductible to offset any realized income. He can play this game if he simply wants to pump $10 million into his bank accounts to play with. Whatever he cashes out he offsets in "tax deductible expenses" so he pays nothing.

So I incorrectly stated that only children, the elderly on small fixed incomes and poor people don't pay taxes. The very rich also pay NO taxes as do many of the most profitable corporations on earth.

My bad...

Sweden have unions you can join if you want. In Sweden it's never been connected to the Mafia/outlaw however. They help people get better pay or working conditions when things get too bad.

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise_50

Unions gave us the 40 hour work week. Unions gave us weekends. Unions caused there to be regulations in extremely dangerous jobs that had none before. If you look at all unions gave us they really did something. Most people now have no idea what it was like before unions. Most people have no idea that weekends and 40 hour work weeks and overtime pay ONLY came about because of unions. What I'm saying is what people now take for granted they truly don't know unions are the reason.

I completely agree, and it was awesome that we had unions to do that for us, but that was then, and this is now. Unions are not here today to prevent companies from abolishing the 40 hour work week.

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise

Unions are the ONLY thing that can pay for political candidates like all the billionaires and corporations in the USA do. They are the ONE and only counter to ALL of the massive money waged in campaigns by the other side.

I don't think this is necessarily a good thing. Just because unions can back a candidate, doesn't mean they should. And even if the candidate truly is a good person and the right person for the job, I'm not sure unions should be spending members money trying to get someone elected, that money should be used to service the members, not some politician.

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise

Walgreens just decided to become an Irish company to avoid paying $4,000,000,000 in taxes in the USA even though their realized tax rate is 16% of profits. Do you pay more than 16% of your income in taxes? Do you think it is fair what 40 corporations have done = just what Walgreens wants to do? Do you realize that Exxon-Mobile, the company that makes more profits every year than any company in the history of the planet, gets $4,500,000,000 in corporate welfare every year from the USA? There are about 150 million USA citizens that pay taxes (those that don't are children, the very elderly on a small fixed income and the poor). That means EVERY ONE of us gives Exxon Mobile $25 bucks every year! Think about that the next time you fill up your vehicle. Every year you give Exxon Mobile a $25 tip because you love them so much. Boy oh boy...they sure need that.

Do you realize GE made over $40,000,000,000 in profits last year and paid 0% tax AND got corporate welfare on top of that? Did you know that? Hey, I work my ass off. I have my own business. I have a couple employees. Since I'm self-employed I have to pay double the rate as an employee towards Social Security every year. I pay 15.3% towards Social Security every year. My federal tax rate on my income is 28%. My state income tax rate is 7%...SO I pay 50.3% tax on my income every year.

So, ask yourself WHY does GE pay 0% tax? Why can Walgreens just declare they are an Irish company now to avoid paying 16% tax? Why do we give Exxon Mobile $4,5000,000,000 every year even though they are the most profitable company that has ever existed EVER?

Do you see something wrong here? Do you see how the 1% and corporations DON'T even come close to paying their fair share? Do you see why we have less and less money to pay for anything? And it only gets worse and worse.

UNIONS? They are all that's left to counter the other side.

Agreed that this is horrific, but how do you propose a union change it? If you actually think that a union back politician when elected will change this, you're dreaming.

Sugarpie, I'm not dreaming. I work in the trenches of politics. You live in Canada. What experience do you have with Unions? What experience do you have in politics? What experience do you have in creating and running a business. One thing I get really bored with is opinions by folks with no real life experience commenting on things they've never dealt with personally.

The only thing union-backed politicians can do, if they even win, is to attempt to slow down what is obviously happening and will continue to happen in the USA. There is no other entity that has any clout whatsoever to counter billionaires who've bought the Congress and most of SCOTUS. The ONLY way to do anything is to work through politics. That's it. There is no other avenue. SO, what I do about it is take fucking action.

There were a few thousand of us the marched in Detroit to get water turned by one for folks that were $50 behind in paying their bills. Detroit has an overlord assigned by the GOP Governor. The people voted for their mayor and city government officials, but they can't do a thing. The overlord decides himself what will be. Oh, BTW, the overlord is $80,000 behind in his water bill (owns businesses that don't pay!). Well, the national attention of our march through downtown Detroit caused the overlord to give control of water BACK to the elected officials of Detroit.

That's what I do as well as work behind the scenes big time. Do you know Elizabeth Warren personally? I do. Do you know Howard Dean personally? I do. Do you know Joe Biden personally?. I do.

Are you an activist? Do you put yourself up front and on the line for affecting change?

What are you dreaming?

Posts which consist of nothing more than personal attacks will be deleted, so don't waste your time making them.

That is all.

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise_50

Sugarpie, I'm not dreaming. I work in the trenches of politics. You live in Canada. What experience do you have with Unions?

I worked for an airline that is one of the few non unionized airlines in North America. We had an association of flight attendants that took concerns to management, we made competitive wages, had profit sharing, and rejected forming a union 3 times in 3 years I was there. The union was CONSTANTLY trying to get us to join and from my research, really offered nothing that we couldn't get ourselves.

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise

What experience do you have in politics?

As in running for office? None. How much do you have?
I do have extensive knowledge of politics; mostly in Canada, and to a lesser degree in the US. I just finished journalism school, so yeah...kinda have to have an understanding of whats going on.

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise

What experience do you have in creating and running a business.

I owned my own business for almost 5 years. I was an independent contractor for a new home builder, I managed 3 neighbourhoods and had a staff of 5 people. I personally sold approximately $125M worth of real estate in a little less than 5 years. I built business plans, budgets, advised developers on area structure plans, and met with city councillors.

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise

One thing I get really bored with is opinions by folks with no real life experience commenting on things they've never dealt with personally.

One thing I get really bored with is when folks assume they know everything about someone and then run their mouth about them.

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise

The only thing union-backed politicians can do, if they even win, is to attempt to slow down what is obviously happening and will continue to happen in the USA. There is no other entity that has any clout whatsoever to counter billionaires who've bought the Congress and most of SCOTUS. The ONLY way to do anything is to work through politics. That's it. There is no other avenue. SO, what I do about it is take fucking action.

OR...they can be just as corrupt as the the other guys. Just because they're union backed doesn't mean squat all if they're crooked.

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise

That's what I do as well as work behind the scenes big time. Do you know Elizabeth Warren personally? I do. Do you know Howard Dean personally? I do. Do you know Joe Biden personally?. I do.

And this has to do with what exactly?

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise

Are you an activist? Do you put yourself up front and on the line for affecting change?

Every single day.

Look...all I was saying is that the politician is only as good as his actions, and having a union backing him or her doesn't change that. If the candidate is a dud, having a union backing them doesn't change the fact that they're a dud. My other point is that I don't think its right that union money, payed by its members should be used to support candidates. That money is supposed to be used to help support the workers if they need it, not get someone elected who supports the unions agenda.

Unions had their place at one time, they improved working conditions for millions of people, they brought fair wave to the impoverished. However I don't think a union is needed to achieve that today. You seem to believe that the only way to fight corruption in politics is via a union, and simply don't think thats true. Unions and particularly union leaders can become just as corrupt as the people that you think they should be fighting against. If you want real unbiased change, change from the people for the people you don't do it with other people money. There is nothing a union can do that a group of like minded organized people can't do.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

Posts which consist of nothing more than personal attacks will be deleted, so don't waste your time making them.

That is all.

Butt-face.

Alright Sugarpie then what do you propose since you're against unions dues to support candidates that support unions and workers attempting to get shafted by the bought Congress.

I'm not kidding. I'm being serious. The fact that I do know the people I stated I know was answering your question asking me what I do. I literally work with these people in attempting to keep things like Medicare and the Affordable Care act (which in the USA is the only thing remotely resembling healthcare coverage for 10's of millions...unlike Canada which is civilized in that way).

Really, I'd like to know your thoughts about what can possibly be done to counter billionaires who really don't pay taxes worth beans and have their wealth stashed away in the Cayman Islands and other places YET can spend now unlimited amounts both in SuperPaks and directly to candidates. Do you have any ideas?

You did work for a good airline if they provided profit sharing. Can I ask you what airline it was? (I know it wasn't a USA airline). I'm also sorry that I got heated in responding to you. That was wrong and I do apologize (I get heated about the way things are dying politically for the middle class who still pays all the taxes they have to while the 1% and corporations don't and are hardly doing at all. I get annoyed they've gutted the EPA and allow toxic crap to be forced down fracking wells unregulated which has now definitely gotten into our water supplies).

Lindros, I hear you and I apologize.

Karzan, that's really quite an insight you said there.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

...
I worked for an airline that is one of the few non unionized airlines in North America. We had an association of flight attendants that took concerns to management, we made competitive wages, had profit sharing, and rejected forming a union 3 times in 3 years I was there. The union was CONSTANTLY trying to get us to join and from my research, really offered nothing that we couldn't get ourselves. ...

Unions had their place at one time, they improved working conditions for millions of people, they brought fair wave to the impoverished. However I don't think a union is needed to achieve that today. You seem to believe that the only way to fight corruption in politics is via a union, and simply don't think that's true. Unions and particularly union leaders can become just as corrupt as the people that you think they should be fighting against. If you want real unbiased change, change from the people for the people you don't do it with other people money. There is nothing a union can do that a group of like minded organized people can't do.

Sugar, Sugar, Sugar.......
You live a province that has an anti-union government. Witness 1984 when Getty was in power. The Tories at that time enacted legislation that allowed union contractors to get out of their contracts with the unions by locking out their workers for 25 hours. The workers could return to work 25 hours later at a 50% wage cut. I know, I was there. If you wanted to get out of a loan agreement with the bank, and said them that you were going to start paying them only 50% of what you borrowed, and there was not a damn thing they could do, what would happen to you? Would you be allowed to break this contract?
The AFL took the Alberta government to the Supreme court and the court decided that it was unconstitutional but the damage was done. The AFL affiliated unions have never really recovered to this day. This attack on the families of organized workers was orchestrated by the major contractors, who made billions at that time. Money talks and, as we all know, the Tories love money. And did I add that that same government, who is still arrogantly in power today, has made it extremely difficult for workers who want to be organized to become so.
Now WJ is probably a great company to work for BUT... if they decided to slash your wages by 50% there would be nothing you could do about it.....Nothing. Now, if you have a union in place, a contract is in place. The terms of the contract have to be negotiated and agreed upon. Not the same as working unorganized.
There is a pseudo-union here at home called CLAC, The so called Christian Labour Association of Canada, which many major formerly non-union contractors hide behind to keep the traditional labour unions at bay. They have a contract, which is a joke, where representation of the workers is left to a non-elected bargaining body. Their grievance procedure allows for the non-elected bargaining agent to "represent" them. They get around the Rand formula of dues payment by allowing their workers to either pay dues OR make a charitable contribution instead.Now, in a traditional union, the members pay dues to be represented by a democratically elected executive and all expenditures are voted on by the members before the money is allowed to be spent. I have to wonder who is paying the salaries of the unelected CLAC executive if the "members" money is going to charitable donations. Also, I have never seen a union contract that allows the company you work for to cut your wages due to "market" conditions. This is the last paragraph in their so called contract. Are unions relevant?

A union is a collection of your so called "like minded people" that effect change. The unions effected change from the turn of the century into the 70's. The middle class grew. The country prospered. A family could be supported by one individual working. For the last 25 years governments have legislated against Unions and big business funneled money into governments that did. The middle class shrunk and families suffered. Today s norm is 2 working parents working to make ends meet and afford any kind of decent lifestyle. That is the power of unions my dear and the business establishment is doing everything in their power to make sure you don't have any. Are Unions still relevant? Now more than ever.
I have worked Union all my working life and have made the occasional foray to the dark side when work was slow. I always return to the union fold where I am treated decently and with respect. When I worked the dark side I had to take contractors to the labour board to get money that was owed to me more than once.
In one case, a company that I was working for was cheating their entire workforce out of overtime, millions of dollars taken from them. I took the company to the Federal labour board. As a result, all of the workers in the company had to be paid 6 months worth of back pay and the company was required to pay them fairly from that point on wards. The company had their people working under this "loophole" for 7 years and not one was willing to stand up for fear of "rocking" the boat. All it took was one union member to make this happen for them. Competition in business is waged on the backs of the workers Sugar. Good Union members are versed in the laws of labor compared to the un-organized and un-educated. Are unions relevant?
It takes courage to be a union member. The courage to stand up to inequality, the courage to stand up for fair treatment, the courage to stand up for fair working conditions, the courage to require a safe workplace so that I go home every night in one piece in my dangerous occupation. Women working in the union get the sames wages as their male counterparts, not so in much of the unorganized working world where women routinely work for 75% or less than a man doing the same job.
Courage....the one thing that the unorganized lack due to fear of being fired because they have no representation and their employer can hang the proverbial sword of Damocles over their heads for fear of losing their jobs, their homes, their cars, and ultimately, their dignity.
So now you tell me, are unions still relevant?

...Allen Bradely...

Truth. Thank you.

Sugarpie. I'm putting a link here. It's my most recent diary on DailyKos. Once it gets cleared by what needs to happen here, you'll be able to see who I am and what I do. The DailyKos created NetRoots Nation. What I do there is create and make it so. I'm naive about Canadian Provinces and the politics. Where are you? Alberta?

The current government of Canada is corrupted by fossil fuel mogals...that much I DO know.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/08/04/1319005/-Kitchen-Table-Kibitzing-8-4-14-How-Frackers-defeated-Butte-County

I don't manipulate. I don't deceive.

Allen Bradley sorry for the typo with your name (egg on my face)

Quote:

Originally posted by paradise_50

Allen Bradley sorry for the typo with your name (egg on my face)

No problem. Keep up the good fight.....