Tebow.... Love Him? Hate Him? Baby Jesus?

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy!

I don't know anything about this dude, never heard of him. From an outsiders pov, if he wants to display his faith, let him. As long as its not an overtly, in-your-face down-your-throat kinda way, which, again from an outsiders pov seems a very american thing, then it's all good.

That's just it. He is not operating within your hypothesis. He's VERY overt, and VERY in your face about it. Worse, he brings his cult members with him - who by the way don't know the first fucking thing about football but will try to tell you how it works.

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy!

Nobody's said shit. Seriously. The guys awesome, and is just displaying his faith. Nowt wrong with that.

Surely this tebow should be allowed to do the same...

IF that's all Tebow did, I doubt it would be an issue. You're drawing similarities between your experience with the ManU player and applying it to Tebow. Based on what you've written about your ManU guy - first, he's in Europe, it's a different culture there. He tries that in the US and he better have a body guard. Second, he's not nearly as in your face as Tebow is.

If they behaved similarly, then I'd agree they should be treated similarly. That's not what the situation is though.

Quote:

Originally posted by reconjumps

...

How do you feel about overt displays of homosexuality like two guys swapping spit in public? Have you seen what goes on at a gay rights parade?

And if I had gone to a Gay Pride parade willingly, I'd expect to have to deal with that.

I did not go to Tebow's church. I went to a football game. How about if the next time you're out to dinner with your mom, the waiter and a few other blokes come in and serve your meal, and then strip for your mum?

Is that what you came there for?

If you had gone to a strip club that featured such things, you might be okay with it. If you were out for a totally different purpose, in an entirely different venue, then yeah, that's out of line. The waiter should not be swinging his dick in your mom's face as she tries to eat her cheesecake - especially if she doesn't want it to happen and didn't know it was going to happen.

No one walked into Tebow's church and told him to knock his bullshit off. He came on a football field and tried to start a congregation.

There's a HUGE difference there, and one that I'm surprised needed to be pointed out.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

.
You're drawing similarities between your experience with the ManU player and applying it to Tebow. Based on what you've written about your ManU guy.....

Typical. I didn't even mention man u, I mentioned Newcastle United, and you automatically think of man u.....


Anyhoo, I didn't realise this fucknut was thatreligiously inclined. Spose I should of read it a bit more. If he's shoving it down everyone's throats, I'd tell him to Fuckoff. If I wanted to go to church, I would, but when I'm trying to watch a sport, that's why I wanna do.

Save the god stuff for raising the roof on a Sunday, and get on with the game I say!

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy!

...

Typical. I didn't even mention man u, I mentioned Newcastle United, and you automatically think of man u.....

I sincerely apologize. Being a football fan, I understand the passion and what an insult that was. I sincerely regret my careless response.

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy!

Anyhoo, I didn't realise this fucknut was thatreligiously inclined. Spose I should of read it a bit more. If he's shoving it down everyone's throats, I'd tell him to Fuckoff. If I wanted to go to church, I would, but when I'm trying to watch a sport, that's why I wanna do.

Save the god stuff for raising the roof on a Sunday, and get on with the game I say!

Thanks for that. Yeah, he's pretty over the top. He is NOT like most other religious athletes.

He's an Evangelical Christian Fundamentalist. By definition in their belief system, it is mandatory to spread their version of Christianity in order to earn one's way into heaven. It's a requirement to proselytize - to convert people to their religion.

Also bear in mind that even without that facet, this is indeed deemed a cult. It's deemed a cult by the technical definition of the word as Sociologists and Historians use it, but it's also deemed a cult by other Christian groups.

It's the Christian equivalent of fundamentalist Sharia law in Islam.

And yeah, I've spent time with some of these lunatics. They're just as crazy on our side of the pond as they are on the other.

I see talk about Christians and I bash them too much already on facebook, so I'll just say:


GO RAVENS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

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That's just it. He is not operating within your hypothesis. He's VERY overt, and VERY in your face about it. Worse, he brings his cult members with him - who by the way don't know the first fucking thing about football but will try to tell you how it works.

...

IF that's all Tebow did, I doubt it would be an issue. You're drawing similarities between your experience with the ManU player and applying it to Tebow. Based on what you've written about your ManU guy - first, he's in Europe, it's a different culture there. He tries that in the US and he better have a body guard. Second, he's not nearly as in your face as Tebow is.

If they behaved similarly, then I'd agree they should be treated similarly. That's not what the situation is though.

...

And if I had gone to a Gay Pride parade willingly, I'd expect to have to deal with that.

I did not go to Tebow's church. I went to a football game. How about if the next time you're out to dinner with your mom, the waiter and a few other blokes come in and serve your meal, and then strip for your mum?

Is that what you came there for?

If you had gone to a strip club that featured such things, you might be okay with it. If you were out for a totally different purpose, in an entirely different venue, then yeah, that's out of line. The waiter should not be swinging his dick in your mom's face as she tries to eat her cheesecake - especially if she doesn't want it to happen and didn't know it was going to happen.

No one walked into Tebow's church and told him to knock his bullshit off. He came on a football field and tried to start a congregation.

There's a HUGE difference there, and one that I'm surprised needed to be pointed out.

Nonsense the only people putting Tebow's faith in your face is the media not Tebow. You would not insist that two gay guys stop kissing in public so has not to put their homosexuality in your face.

Tebow's expression of faith is no more disruptive the celebration of other athletes when they score and is more akin to a peron who publicly gives credit to his faith when he wins an award.

There are already plenty fo people at games who are not there for the game itself but the partying associated with it.

Most of the people upset about Tebow are those who push for things like Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas as a greating. I suspecct that his anti-abortion views have a lot to do with the hate.

I do not go to church except for things like weddings but I am amazed how the First Amendment has been turned from instrument to protect religious expression to one to restrict it. Public Schools should not promeote religion but they should not restrict its expression on an individul basis that does not disrupt the school Even a moment of silence at the beginning of the school day should be OK. But now we have schools even banning the wearing of religious symbols

http://post-gazette.com/localnews/20030507cross0507p2.asp

http://www.kens5.com/news/Texas-City-student-banned-from-wearing-cross-necklace-93861749.html

Heck some "American" schools even ban the American Flag.

http://www.judicialwatch.org/blog/2010/11/public-school-bans-u-s-flag-avoid-racial-tension/

Quote:

Originally posted by reconjumps

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Nonsense the only people putting Tebow's faith in your face is the media not Tebow.

Really?

I don't see the Super Bowl ads about religion that the media paid for.

Further, Tebow is a public figure. If he wants to stay quiet about certain topics he has that choice and then I agree, it's hands off. For example we don't know how Brett Favre feels about religion. We have no idea how John Elway prays. We know that about Tebow though, because he put it out there and made it an issue.

When someone chooses to enter a conversation as a public figure, they've opened that door, and they've done so because they wanted to.

Further, people are responsible for the outcomes of their actions. By broadcasting his faith in a VERY abrupt manner - a manner far more outrageous than that of Reggie White or Steve Young ever did, they bring out supporters and give voice to them.

One example is that at a game recently, an adult male wearing a Tebow jersey and holding a sign that had a Bible quote on it told another fan that he shouldn't be kissing his girlfriend in public and that he thought it was offensive and didn't want his kids to see it. The young man told the Tebow desciple to mind his own business.

The gent who opened the conversation told the young man that he was making choices that would lead him to burn in Hell for eternity and that he should strive to be as good as Tebow is.

That's amazingly insulting in and of itself, not to mention... "What the fuck!? At a football game? Are you out of your mind? This ain't polo, mother fucker!"

As you might guess, the little goody-goody preacher dude got knocked the fuck out, and rightly so.

And then it all just gets uglier from there.

These are not isolated incidents.

Because of Tebow's in your face antics, he gives voice to others. When he does that, although indirectly, he is responsible for those outcomes that he chose to inspire. Maybe not legally, but morally and ethically he is responsible for the outcomes he controls.

If Tebow didn't want the press and didn't want his cult members behaving that way, he could very easily say so. After all, it's not like he's shy. He did a Super Bowl commercial about things he believed in when he was still in college, so you can't tell me he's afraid to speak out about things he thinks are wrong.

Silence is an answer. It's tacit approval, and those that take these kinds of actions to stir up trouble are doing exactly what Tebow wants them to do, what he's been taught to do since the day he was born; proselytize - spread the cult by any means available.

Quote:

Originally posted by reconjumps

You would not insist that two gay guys stop kissing in public

I would if they then tried to impose their standards on me in any way, shape or form.

If someone wants to sit there and hold a Bible sign, super. If someone wants to believe in God, super. That's fine as long as they don't push it on to me.

THAT is what many in this thread seem to fail to understand. He is not just being religious. He most certainly IS putting it in people's faces.

Quote:

Originally posted by reconjumps

Tebow's expression of faith is no more disruptive the celebration of other athletes when they score and is more akin to a peron who publicly gives credit to his faith when he wins an award.

I agree his end zone celebration is fine. I don't mind that at all. If that's all he did though, this wouldn't be a discussion.

Steve Young is a Mormon, so was Joe Montana. Can you recall this kind of discussion being had about them? Randy Gradishar, a Denver Bronco, was also Mormon. As pointed out above, Ryan Harris is also religious and plays for the same team as Tebow - in fact they're in on every single play together. Yet we're not discussing the controversy Ryan Harris created, are we?

Nope. This is the part many here fail to grasp. He is not simply religious. He wants you to be religious - HIS religion - too. And he doesn't mind telling folks about it.

And that's not okay.

This deserved a separate reply:

Quote:

Originally posted by reconjumps

Most of the people upset about Tebow are those who push for things like Happy Holidays instead of Merry Christmas as a greating.

That's a bunch of shit too. You just made that up. It's not true. I'm all for religious rights. What Tebow does is outside the lines however, and he hasn't gotten nearly the heat he deserved for it.

Quote:

Originally posted by reconjumps

I suspecct that his anti-abortion views have a lot to do with the hate.

Respect what you want. I know a lot of people who are anti-abortion and I still find them to be good people who are civil, that I respect, and that I enjoy spending time with.

No, I don't think that his stance alone is the cause of the polarity in this case. I think that's an excuse people hide behind to try to distract from the core issue; that Tebow - and many other Christians - are pushy, overbearing, and have no regard for anyone's belief system aside from their own.

Quote:

Originally posted by reconjumps

But now we have schools even banning the wearing of religious symbols

[ Link ]

[ Link ]

Heck some "American" schools even ban the American Flag.

[ Link ]

Those are examples taken wildly out of context. In one case the symbols were banned because by law, if an area is granted to one religious group then one must be granted to any religious group that requests it, which is unreasonable in many modern schools.

The second link you posted is very one-sided as well. The school in question was predominantly hispanic, and the incident took place on Cinco De Mayo where the student intentionally was flaunting the flag in an attempt to provoke and incite conflict.

The school did the right thing by telling him not to do that.


If you're not interested in having an honest conversation, why have a conversation at all?

ahh the worlds most persecuted religion (Christianity), now has the most persecuted athlete- how fitting of democrats / socialists. you bunch of twits.


btw.. this detox thing is nice, glad i brought my phone. they keep taking my blood pressure every hour ... grrrr night folks.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

...

Really?

I don't see the Super Bowl ads about religion that the media paid for.

Further, Tebow is a public figure. If he wants to stay quiet about certain topics he has that choice and then I agree, it's hands off. For example we don't know how Brett Favre feels about religion. We have no idea how John Elway prays. We know that about Tebow though, because he put it out there and made it an issue.

When someone chooses to enter a conversation as a public figure, they've opened that door, and they've done so because they wanted to.

While I agree with little of any argument you make on any topic, at least they tend to border on intelligently conceived.

That however, is one of the most assinine things I have ever read. The man is a professional football player. That does not make him a public figure. I public figure is elected and/or appointed to a position and is paid via public taxation. He is a professional. To get there, he had to work his ass off. He may choose to use his popularity to further a cause he believes in, and in this case, it's a cause that he believes will save people's lives.

But for that he's hated... because some guy in the stands preaches to some kid, because the news media puts him on page one, because..... all of the other reasons that make no sense!?!? Good grief, I'm not a Broncos fan, I'm not a Gators fan, I'm not even an NFL fan, but I am smart enough to recognize plain and simple bigotry when I see it.

What's the most glaring difference between between T. Tebow and other like him vs. the people that hate him? I'll tell ya what it is, Tim still loves the people that hate him.


Good topic MissMia, but it's gone too far off the reservation of intelligent conversation now. Hating a guy just because he's got conservative convictions is all to common, and all too sad.




I can't say as I've ever seen TB do an IN YOUR FACE. Seems to me that if it is in your face, you're too close to the TV, and should blame your own stance and the cameraman that brought it to you.

Maybe it's time to Bust'm-Out some prophecy.

Tim Tebow will continue to express his faith in the manner that suits him, not what other people want him to conform to.
Tim Tebow will be an outstanding example to many children for a decade or two, of what an average athlete that is willing to work hard and stay true to himself can accomplish.
Tim Tebow will be an example of good character for a generation or two.
Tim Tebow will be a tool of God for many purposes, the greatest of which will have nothing to do with football.
Tim Tebow will be hated by those that harbor deep resentment toward christianity, and/or religion.
Tim Tebow will be adored by those that wish they had the courage to display their faith as he does.
Tim Tebow will never denigrate others in a public forum for disagreeing with him.
Tim Tebow will be a person that shows love and kindness throughout his lifetime, on and off the field.
Tim Tebow, regardless of the level of success he enjoys in his career, which quarterbacking a BCS NChamp team already puts him far above 99.9% of the general NFL population and about 99.999999% above the general US population, he will give praise to God for his success, instead of patting himself on the back.
and lastly,
I believe that like Joe Montana, despite a poor start, he will experience a tremendous NFL career.

Yeah, I can see why people hate him so bad.



I ain't writin' in stone, but I won't be surprised if it's 100% accurate.... Hopefully he learned a thing or two watching Tiger Woods and Jim Tressel.

Quote:

Originally posted by Americanbulldog

ahh the worlds most persecuted religion (Christianity), now has the most persecuted athlete- how fitting of democrats / socialists. you bunch of twits.

Yeah um... The socialists are usually associated with the other side of the fence than the Christians... Good luck on the detox. Looks like you might have a ways to go yet. Hang in there, man.

Quote:

Originally posted by bustMall

That however, is one of the most assinine things I have ever read. The man is a professional football player.

lol.

Seriously. That's all your post is worth.

Yeah, that makes him a public figure by definition. It especially becomes true when he uses his status as a football player to try to spread his religion.

You're cute. I hope we get to keep you.

The fact that many people in the public want to watch him, does not make him a public figure any more so than Bill Gates. You can choose to turn him off and ignore him. The same cannot be said for a public figure, say like a cop. Being among the best in the world at what you do does not make you "Public". It is not that difficult a concept to understand... at least I didn't think so.

....he is proud of being a Christian. I am proud of being without religion.

Either way...big fucking deal.

Quote:

Originally posted by F1098

....he is proud of being a Christian. I am proud of being without religion.

Either way...big fucking deal.

Most sensible post in the thread

So of all the folks that are bashing Tebow as being a terrible QB, how many of you have played, or seriously watched the game of football over the last 10 yrs. Think about the man that drafted him..... Josh McDaniels is one of the greatest Offensive minds in the game of football over the last 10 years maybe longer.
Aslo it is true that Tebow is up front about his faith, but has anyone seen the latest commercial Mike Vick is in? I believe the quote is, "God has given me a second chance." This is a commercial that I have personally seen 2 dozen times.
Oh and please!!! To the guy that fired off that if Tebow wasn't a devout Christian he wouldn't get a second look from NFL teams, that is the logic of a person that doesn't understand the game of football. I have played and coached for the better part of my 33 yrs on this planet.
Does anyone remember that this young man has 2 National Championships in Collage as well as a Heisman trophy (BTW the only sophomore to EVER win the award). The kid obviously has some talent or he wouldn't have become possibly the best College Quarterback to ever play the game.
The fact that he is a Christian has zero to do with his talent.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

...

Really?

I don't see the Super Bowl ads about religion that the media paid for.

Further, Tebow is a public figure. If he wants to stay quiet about certain topics he has that choice and then I agree, it's hands off. For example we don't know how Brett Favre feels about religion. We have no idea how John Elway prays. We know that about Tebow though, because he put it out there and made it an issue.

When someone chooses to enter a conversation as a public figure, they've opened that door, and they've done so because they wanted to.

Further, people are responsible for the outcomes of their actions. By broadcasting his faith in a VERY abrupt manner - a manner far more outrageous than that of Reggie White or Steve Young ever did, they bring out supporters and give voice to them.

One example is that at a game recently, an adult male wearing a Tebow jersey and holding a sign that had a Bible quote on it told another fan that he shouldn't be kissing his girlfriend in public and that he thought it was offensive and didn't want his kids to see it. The young man told the Tebow desciple to mind his own business.

The gent who opened the conversation told the young man that he was making choices that would lead him to burn in Hell for eternity and that he should strive to be as good as Tebow is.

That's amazingly insulting in and of itself, not to mention... "What the fuck!? At a football game? Are you out of your mind? This ain't polo, mother fucker!"

As you might guess, the little goody-goody preacher dude got knocked the fuck out, and rightly so.

And then it all just gets uglier from there.

These are not isolated incidents.

Because of Tebow's in your face antics, he gives voice to others. When he does that, although indirectly, he is responsible for those outcomes that he chose to inspire. Maybe not legally, but morally and ethically he is responsible for the outcomes he controls.

If Tebow didn't want the press and didn't want his cult members behaving that way, he could very easily say so. After all, it's not like he's shy. He did a Super Bowl commercial about things he believed in when he was still in college, so you can't tell me he's afraid to speak out about things he thinks are wrong.

Silence is an answer. It's tacit approval, and those that take these kinds of actions to stir up trouble are doing exactly what Tebow wants them to do, what he's been taught to do since the day he was born; proselytize - spread the cult by any means available.

...

I would if they then tried to impose their standards on me in any way, shape or form.

If someone wants to sit there and hold a Bible sign, super. If someone wants to believe in God, super. That's fine as long as they don't push it on to me.

THAT is what many in this thread seem to fail to understand. He is not just being religious. He most certainly IS putting it in people's faces.

...

I agree his end zone celebration is fine. I don't mind that at all. If that's all he did though, this wouldn't be a discussion.

Steve Young is a Mormon, so was Joe Montana. Can you recall this kind of discussion being had about them? Randy Gradishar, a Denver Bronco, was also Mormon. As pointed out above, Ryan Harris is also religious and plays for the same team as Tebow - in fact they're in on every single play together. Yet we're not discussing the controversy Ryan Harris created, are we?

Nope. This is the part many here fail to grasp. He is not simply religious. He wants you to be religious - HIS religion - too. And he doesn't mind telling folks about it.

And that's not okay.

So what you are saying is the Tebow should be quite because you do not want to hear what he has to say.

You are not forced to listen to what he says. You have the option of muting the volumn or changing the channels. I am sure if there Networks felt his actions were impacting rating negatively you would not be seeing it on TV anymore. Just as you have those options when a hollywood celebrity such as Sean Penn decides to expose us to his political wisdom or lack there of to be more accurate.

When you have fans severly beating/almost killing the fans of opposing teams (Dodgers-Giants/Cheifs-Jets)so a few "zealots" in the stands is hardly your biggest problem. Its not like they are defecating in public like the OWS movement. You are probably safer in a stadium with the "zealots" than at a OWS protest location given the criminal activity at some of them.

Quote:

Originally posted by redneckdevil

So of all the folks that are bashing Tebow as being a terrible QB, how many of you have played, or seriously watched the game of football over the last 10 yrs. Think about the man that drafted him..... Josh McDaniels is one of the greatest Offensive minds in the game of football over the last 10 years maybe longer.
Aslo it is true that Tebow is up front about his faith, but has anyone seen the latest commercial Mike Vick is in? I believe the quote is, "God has given me a second chance." This is a commercial that I have personally seen 2 dozen times.
Oh and please!!! To the guy that fired off that if Tebow wasn't a devout Christian he wouldn't get a second look from NFL teams, that is the logic of a person that doesn't understand the game of football. I have played and coached for the better part of my 33 yrs on this planet.
Does anyone remember that this young man has 2 National Championships in Collage as well as a Heisman trophy (BTW the only sophomore to EVER win the award). The kid obviously has some talent or he wouldn't have become possibly the best College Quarterback to ever play the game.
The fact that he is a Christian has zero to do with his talent.

He has talent.

Unfortunately for him, it's just not at throwing a football.

[reply=reconjumps]
...

So what you are saying is the Tebow should be quite because you do not want to hear what he has to say.[/quote]

Not at all. He can make choices. He just doesn't have the right to be offended when I speak back.

Now the question is are we here for football, or for religious brainwashing? Personally, I go to the game for football, so yeah I'd say his behavior is inappropriate for that environment, just as someone would if I kept screaming political slogans and making slams on a particular candidate at a football game. They'd get kind of tired of my nonsense, especially if they didn't share my views.

Same's true here.

Apply the same standards equally and you'll find that the behaviors here are anything but.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

...

He just doesn't have the right to be offended when I speak back.

I have the distinct impression that he IS NOT.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

Now the question is are we here for football, or for religious brainwashing?

Seriously? You brainwash that easily? C'mon.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

Personally, I go to the game for football, so yeah I'd say his behavior is inappropriate for that environment, just as someone would if I kept screaming political slogans and making slams on a particular candidate at a football game. They'd get kind of tired of my nonsense, especially if they didn't share my views.

You are right. People would grow tired of it. But they would most likely tolerate it.... and certainly wouldn't lower themselves to the ideological equivalent of a toad, and claim that they were being brainwashed.

Just sayin'

Quote:

Originally posted by bustMall

The man is a professional football player. That does not make him a public figure. I public figure is elected and/or appointed to a position and is paid via public taxation.

Now, now, you don't get to change the definitions of words to one that better suits your argument.

Wikipedia - Public Figure:

Quote:

Public figure is a legal term applied in the context of defamation actions (libel and slander) as well as invasion of privacy. A public figure (such as a politician, celebrity, or business leader) cannot base a lawsuit on incorrect harmful statements unless there is proof that the writer or publisher acted with actual malice (knowledge of falsity or reckless disregard for the truth[1] ).

Dictionary.com - Public Figure

Quote:

Main Entry: public fig·ure
Function: noun
: an individual or entity that has acquired fame or notoriety or has participated in a particular public controversy

Quote:

public figure

noun
a well-known or notable person; "they studied all the great names in the history of France"; "she is an important figure in modern music"

Tim Tebow is a public figure.

He is not a public servant, which is what you're referring to.