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So can cellphones be tapped or not?

Starter: Jeff613 Posted: 18 years ago Views: 1.2K
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#2828459
Lvl 14
Most of us labor under the false assumption, to begin with, that "wiretapping" is done by actually tapping into a conventional wired phone line. Not true. It's done by induction, which requires no "tapping" into anything, though this can measurably effect the conductive properties of the line, and that can be detected. Inductive listening cannot be heard by tanyone using the phone and produces no weird noises on the line, etc. That's line telephones. Now, let us move on to cellphones.....

So some say cellphones can be tapped, listened to, etc. Just how is this done? Listening to the actual transmission coming from an individual phone would be all but useless. That transmission is both digital and encoded, plus it's going to hop from one frequency and from one tower to another constantly. Ditto with the signal coming from a particular tower. These methods make listening to even the old style analog cellphones al but useless. So if cellphone eavesdropping can be done, just where in the system and how is it done? Cellphones leave a long and verifiable trail as to where the user made a call, who the user is, who they made it to and other info, but that still doesn't reveal what was verbally said during the conversation.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828460
Lvl 8
Yes you can listen to people on there cell phones with a police scanner if you have the correct software installed for the cell phone frequency
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828461
Lvl 19
We use GSM in Europe and that signal is encrypted. So basically only operator can listen your lines. And that's highly forbidden without court order.

As a little side note here:

Quote:

The first GSM network was launched in 1988 by Oy Radiolinja Ab in Finland


* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828462
Lvl 14
No you can't. Believe me, I'm a former licensed radio HAM and have been a scanning enthusiast all my life. The encoding of the digital signal may not be military grade but it's still done using a proprietary method that no off-the-shelf scanner or software is going to be able to untangle. You'll be listening to what sounds like static at best. Then you also have the fact, as I said before, that listening to any individual phone or tower is going to be pretty much useless. You're going to need to intercept the data stream at a place where it's going to be steadily delivered. Just where that is or if it can be done over the airwaves, I do not know.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828463
Quote:
Originally posted by Ascaris

We use GSM in Europe and that signal is encrypted. So basically only operator can listen your lines. And that's highly forbidden without court order.

As a little side note here:

Quote:

The first GSM network was launched in 1988 by Oy Radiolinja Ab in Finland





we use the same system here in oz..
and our secret services arent even allowed to spy/listen into any australian citizen on australian soil. Theyd also need a court order, and probably use terrorism as an excuse
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828464
Not being part of the cellular world I can't say for sure. I have a tiny bit of background in signal intercepton and jamming (navy). The easiest and I am 100% convinced it is possible and is done, would be to tap into a call at the system level. By that I mean at the cellular provider's location. I am usre it can be doen through the air (RF) but would require specialized equipment as well as a an encrypton key.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828465
Lvl 11
It took me ten seconds on google to confirm what I thought, cellphone tapping is probably quite easy for those with the right equipment.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828466
Lvl 22
Quote:
Originally posted by brownell

It took me ten seconds on google to confirm what I thought, cellphone tapping is probably quite easy for those with the right equipment.


I agree, only after working for a cell phone company that is, all you need is the right stuff.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828467
Lvl 19
Only one association has cracked the GSM encryption. BUT, that trick can be done in exactly right moment, and you have to know what the moment is. And besides that you need equipment what'll cost TOO much. I can't remember the price, but it was ridiculous. It's like brute forcing.

So, if you can crack the signal you need much effort and you'll probably get stuff you don't even need. So it's more easier to walk next to that guy speaking to a mobile phone and listen what he says.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828468
Lvl 12
Quote:
Originally posted by Latino

[reply=Ascaris]
We use GSM in Europe and that signal is encrypted. So basically only operator can listen your lines. And that's highly forbidden without court order.

As a little side note here:

Quote:

The first GSM network was launched in 1988 by Oy Radiolinja Ab in Finland





we use the same system here in oz..
and our secret services arent even allowed to spy/listen into any australian citizen on australian soil. Theyd also need a court order, and probably use terrorism as an excuse
[/reply]

Just a thought on what you said... If it's illegal under normal circumstances for the secret services over there to spy/listen into any Australian citizen on Australian soil, then they will do what other countries have done.. Spy on each other's citizens for their neighbors etc...

Strictly as an example... the United States would spy on the English for the English, and the English would spy on the United States for the United States, all of which is what other nations already do to each other.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828469
Lvl 17
is someone, paranoid.....Jeff613....
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828470
Lvl 8
Digital radio systems, Some levelheaded views
In the last few years, The Michigan State Police and the police forces of a few other cities have switched over to digital radio systems, that digitizes voices and then transmitts them making it impossable to monitor on today's scanners. There is some fear in the scanning community that these digital trunked radio systems are going to make the scanning hobby obsolete. I hardly think that Is the case for three reasons.
1) If your community had switched to an analog trunked radio system in the last few years it has been at great expense and nobody will be looking to make another expensive change to a digital radio system. In 1991 the City of Regina, Saskatchewan spent fourteen million dollars on their analog trunked radio system. Over the eight years that the system has been in place the cost to the taxpayers of Regina has been 1.75 million dollars per year. Not very cost effective to change now.

2) With a lot of pressure on governments to keep costs and taxes under control, the millions of dollars that it costs to implement a digital radio system (several thousands per radio) is hard to justify to the taxpayer. The city of Los Angeles is planning to spend over fifty million dollars on a new Motorola Astro digital radio communications system. If I were a taxpayer in Los Angeles I would be rather irate.

The only way I could see a community possably go to a digital radio system is if the existing radio system is more than twenty-five years old and due for replacement. The two major manufacturers of digital radio systems, Motorola, and Ericsson are also major players in the cell phone industry, that is putting out bad press about people with scanners to sell digital PCS cell phones to people who already have analog cell phones. If Motorola and Ericsson use the same selling tactic (who says they won't) then communities will be scared in to buying something they probably can't afford.

3) The Motorla Astro and the Ericsson EDACS systems are incompatible. There is no set standard for digital radio systems. This squabbling over standards is holding back the adoption of digital radio communications. There is a push towards an open standard called APCO Project 25. Motorola and Ericsson's propriatary systems are way too profitable for them to adopt an open standard. If a community goes to a Motorola Astro digital radio communications system then they must go back to Motorola for more radios. Under Project 25 a community with a Project 25 radio system can go to any supplier for radios and therefore get the best price.

Towns, Cities, Counties, States and Provinces are probably are waiting one standard so that they have cross compatible radio communications. For many years to come there will be lots of good monitoring yet to do.

For More Information on:
Motorola Astro
Ericsson EDACS
An Interesting Article on digital radio systems


The Commercialization of Scanning
The emergence of streaming audio over the internet has lead to a number of web sites where anybody at the click of a mouse can monitor police and fire department radio communications from New York, Los Angeles and many other cities. While audio streams into your home computer you also get something else, advertising. While listening to real audio an animated ad banner almost always is seen in the browser window. This could also be seen as what used to be an underground hobby has gone mainstream. The way I see it police/fire departments can use streaming audio web sites as a source of revenue. Ad driven web sites delivering streaming audio of their radio communications can be attractive to cash strapped cities or towns looking for new sources of revenue. If you think about it if a city with a digital radio system can sell an audio feed of their radio communications to an internet company who can put the radio feed on the net as a streaming audio internet feed can sell the banner ads and make a slick profit. Once Cities/towns and states or provinces can get their digital radio systems paid for, reselling radio communications audio feeds mean nothing else than a small profit, giving cities another reason to go to a digital radio system.

It's time for the cell phone industry to get a grip
Monitoring cellular telephones, despite being illegal in the United States is immensly popular. Because of this the companies that produce cellular phones and companies that sell cellular phone service are sounding a alarm about people monitoring on scanners claiming that scanner users are invading the privacy of cell phone customers. Since cellular phones transmit on the public airwaves where nothing is private and is therefore can be monitored. The cell phone industry however still has the idea that what ever said on a cellular phone should be protected from monitoring. Instead of scrambling cell phone signals, the cell phone industry has lobbied governments to pass legislation that places restrictions on what frequencies that can be recieved on a scanner. If the cell phone industry was really concerned about the privacy of their customers' calls they would have
Made cell phones operate on frequencies above 1000 MHz, beyond the frequency range of most scanners and UHF tv tuners.
Scramble all transmissions so the very few scanners that can recieve frequencies above 1000 MHz would not be able to clearly tune in cell phone calls.
By getting the government of the United States to pass anti-scanner laws in 1986, 1994, and 1998 the cell phone industry can claim that they did somthing about a problem that dosen't really exist. Now in selling the next generation of cell phones called "digital PCS" the cell phone industry are now using adverstising that makes scanner users look like sleasy people with nothing better to do than listen in on cell calls. The propergandabeing put out by the cell phone industry is giving the scanner hobby a bad image. The public needs to be educated about scanners and to be told about the lies from the cell phone industry are just that- a pack of lies Scanner users have to contact their elected officials to let them know that placing limits on what parts of the radio frequency spectrum can and cannot be recieved is wrong. Scanner users can and should take a stand against bad legislation based on the lies from the cell phone industry.
Scanner Ethics
Just after the election of the Republican Congress in 1994 one of the cell phone conversations of house speaker Newt Gingrich was recorded by a scanner user and the tape was turned over to the media. That incident spawned bills HR 1964 and 2369 that threatened to end the scanner hobby as we know it. The bills were only ammended a few months later so that it was only illegal to listen to PCS phones such as listening to analog cellular phones are now in the United States. The scanner user that taped Mr. Gingrich acted irresponsibly by turning over to the media. The bills that threatened the scanner hobby were a result of this person¨s actions.

In order to keep scanning free from future govermnent over regulation, scanner users must act in a responsible manner in regards to what they hear on their scanners. Curriently the Canada Radio Communications Act allows scanners without any licencing without any limits as to what can be tuned into. Just as long as what is heard is not used for personal gain. This is a well balenced approach to when it comes to scanning. The public airwaves are exactly that public If anybody has the right to transmit on the air with their cellular, cordless phones, two-way radio systems, etc. Then anybody else has the right to recieve it with a scanner. The auctioning of HDTV, PCS etc. licences are undermining a valueable public resource by trying to privatize it. Scanner users must act within the law even though restrictions on what scanners can recieve may be unfair. If you listen in on a local official talking to his honey on the side leave it alone, don¨t tell anyone! and most certainly don¨t try to cash in on what you heard. Do enjoy scanning but don¨t do something stupid that you or the entire scanner community will regret later.

Scanner Users Reporting crimes
Today In Canada scanner users have to keep information they heard on their scanners to themselves. Even if that means keeping information about crimes in the planning as a big secret. Canadian scanner users cannot legally report information to the police about people heard plotting a crime. The Canadian Communications Privacy act of 1994 allows people to plot crimes on their cordless phones, Cellular phones, Two-way radio while the scanner users¹ hands are tied. If a scanner user reports a crime in planning the people involved in the crime comitted or not go free simply because their right to privacy had been violated by a scanner user. Such laws are leading and will continue lead to criminals getting away with their crimes. In 1995 in the United States a murder plot was foiled when A scanner user heard those involved and reported the plan to the police and those in the murder plot were charged and convicted with conspiracy to comit murder and are currently serving 30 year sentenced each.
With a case like that how could anyone defend the right of criminals to plan out their crimes in private when scanner users could be used as an extra set of ears for the police. With the commumications privacy act is putting a muzzle on scanner users that could be used as a resource for law enforcement. What the Canadian govermnent has done to scanner users is dreadful. Meanwhile in Washington D.C. Congress is threatning to pass a new scanner law after House Speaker Newt Gingrich had a coversation taped and turned over to the media. The American scanner law will limit what scanners can recieve.
Now¹s the time that scanner users need to take a stand. Scanner users have to write, call, fax, or E-mail their representatives and senators to tell them how you feel. You can E-mail the president to tell him to veto this legislation. Tell the Government to get out of our scanner hobby.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828471
Quote:
Originally posted by Shor

Just a thought on what you said... If it's illegal under normal circumstances for the secret services over there to spy/listen into any Australian citizen on Australian soil, then they will do what other countries have done.. Spy on each other's citizens for their neighbors etc...

Strictly as an example... the United States would spy on the English for the English, and the English would spy on the United States for the United States, all of which is what other nations already do to each other.



indeed..

our DSD (defence signals directorate) are supposedly constantly listening to transmissions all over our region, but 'supposedly' they ignore signals from within Australia, unless theyre a signal theyre looking for. Like a US/UK patriot-expatriot etc.

but as if we believe everything we hear from our government...right?
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828472
Lvl 10
It CAN be done - but this requires to acquire the "client" SIM card for a couple of seconds - until you can clone it. Encryption CAN be broken and/or predicted (I am talking like 3-4 year old technology, recently I don't know, I kind of abandoned research).
Another way is a HACK Phone. This is a regular cell phone with special software - that records the conversation and then without showing anything on your screen call the third party and plays it. This I've done - major problem though: the playback will be shown on your monthly bill.
Easiest way - a small hack into your operator corporate network, then you listen to whatever you want. Just don't get caught, cause then heavy jail time is coming.
So, I am pretty sure - that the gov. posess technology for listening.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828473
Lvl 19
Quote:
Originally posted by Latino

our DSD (defence signals directorate) are supposedly constantly listening to transmissions all over our region, but 'supposedly' they ignore signals from within Australia, unless theyre a signal theyre looking for. Like a US/UK patriot-expatriot etc.

but as if we believe everything we hear from our government...right?


We've had couple huge trials because our biggest operator Sonera listened phonecalls without permission. They wanted to know what happens behind their backs, and got caught. So our judiciary takes these things seriously. And one time cops listened phone without permission and that was a huge story too. I know I'm safe while talking to my phone, Finland's corruption rates are one of the lowest in the whole world.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828474
Lvl 12
Quote:
Originally posted by Latino

[reply=Shor]
Just a thought on what you said... If it's illegal under normal circumstances for the secret services over there to spy/listen into any Australian citizen on Australian soil, then they will do what other countries have done.. Spy on each other's citizens for their neighbors etc...

Strictly as an example... the United States would spy on the English for the English, and the English would spy on the United States for the United States, all of which is what other nations already do to each other.



indeed..

our DSD (defence signals directorate) are supposedly constantly listening to transmissions all over our region, but 'supposedly' they ignore signals from within Australia, unless theyre a signal theyre looking for. Like a US/UK patriot-expatriot etc.

but as if we believe everything we hear from our government...right?
[/reply]

I would rather believe a 20 year drinker/drunk swearing off of the booze for the 100th time this year, then believe what a politician says at least with the drunk you know you have a chance it could happen... with a politician you know one thing for sure... If his lips are moving he's a liar.

As to what I said, just look at some of the embassies and see how many antenna's they have... just how many of the ones they have are truly for communication to the homeland...
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828475
Lvl 7
"Tapping" of mobile calls is possible for most government agencies.

@Latino - As much as it is against our rights here in Australia, trust me they (ASIO) can and DO listen in on Phone calls, read/scan every outgoing email from the country and monitor banking transactions.

We have several government agencies that hire my company’s services to install equipment that is used in communication surveillance and interception.

@ Ascaris - The GSM encoding packet is sent at connection of the phone to a cell and can also be captured on cell handover when a person moves from one cell coverage area to another. With the correct software it is quite simple and requires no hacking/cracking of any kind.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828476
Lvl 14
Nice effort there, Johnny, but you only successfully told me what i already know and still didn't answer my question about how and where a digital cellphone (and what cellphone isn't digital these days, i.e. a PCS as they call it in the US at least) can be intercepted and successfully listened to. I already know a comercially available scanner basically can't do that.

As for the death of scanning as a hobby, that's not happening yet but it will. Just look at how things are progressing and anyone can see that. Its' gotten harder and harder to monitor public safety radio transmissions over the last decade or two. And what is hard and getting harder now is only going to eventually be impossible tomorrow. Cities managed to spend tons of money on their radio systems for the cops and other city services (dog catcher, water department) by saying they needed them after 9-11, which was an outright lie. But that's hwo they got the public to swallow the cost. Mor eof htose cities than you want to admit got systems that are not only trunked, but where the voice traffic itself is transmitted digitally. My fair hometown of Austin happens to be one of them. Yes you can indeed still listen to that type of system if you have mega bucks to drop on something like the right Uniden scanner. BTW, Motorola is no longer manufacturing police radio systems that are non-trunked and fully analog anymore. One reason so many departments are upgrading is because they can't get parts for their aging systems anymore.

However....and there's always a however......San Antonio (which I have not personally tried to listen to) has the same system, only they encrypt the control channel, making it impossible for a scanner to hear and use it. Keep in mind, a department's voice traffic may be digital, but as in Austin, it's NOT, on top of that, also encrypted. Ergo, scanning in San Antonio is impossible, at least as I've heard from third parties. It's not going to be too tough for other cities to turn that feature on either. And those digital radios you say are too expensive for many departments to afford? Eventually they will afford them, phase them in and aquire them. Airbags also used to be too expensive to put in most cars. Now I don't think you can buy a new car without them. The next step is going to be encrypted voice communications or encryption of the control channel on all systems or both, thereby turning all your public safety listening equipment into a bunch of nice paperweights. That's sad, especially since I think monitoring is a great hobby.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828477
Lvl 19
Quote:
Originally posted by kelsta

@ Ascaris - The GSM encoding packet is sent at connection of the phone to a cell and can also be captured on cell handover when a person moves from one cell coverage area to another. With the correct software it is quite simple and requires no hacking/cracking of any kind.


If it'd be that simple, it would happen all the time. I've never heard about that kind of criminality.
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
#2828478
@ ascaris - yeah i feel pretty safe with our system here..but still dont believe all the govt tells us..

we had the 'Tampa' crisis here a few years back http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MV_Tampa our govt was accused of spying on Aus citizens during that.

@ shor - indeed....and i know alot about our govts spying and secret service, my brother is a federal agent here and has told me alot of shocking stories..
* This post has been modified : 18 years ago
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