General BMW thread (lack of better title)

Alright, decided to start a general BMW thread since some discussions have seemed to hijack a couple other threads. My apologies to the thread authors. This thread can be for anything BMW.

Now back to the turbo talk.
Barry; i'm coming from the b-series honda motor camp and as compared to the link you put on the other thread the SC/turbo price range is reverse. It seems to be cheaper to develop TC kits than SCs. Also, i'm not sure if this only applies to honda motors but its come to be known that requiring a lower compression is a myth when it comes to FI. The majority of the answer to that is attributed to tuning, complete tuning. Usually with a standalone such as AEMs EMS, or Hondata. But theres been quite a few members on Teamintegra.net running high comp. (in the high 10s, low 11s area) FI with a decent amount of boost.

Anyway, some eyecandy...

For some applications, a BMW will take FI without any issues. However, when looking to get sizeable increases, BMW's just dont not like high compression and FI. Looking at a S54 and Japanese engines is a little apples to oranges, so be careful not to apply one measure of tuning to the other. BMW's, like a lot of Hondas, are engines that make power up high, but care needs to be taken as most BMW I6's are a bit more stressed than newer Honda engines.
THe other question is durability. A friend of mine is sending his E39 M5 off to RMS, and it is planned to get over 800HP with a supercharger. Im not sure the details of the install, but my best guess is for that number of HP, he will be running somewhere around 10-1 or maybe even 11-1.
Shit, BBL. late for class

Sorry about that.
What exactly is "complete tuning?" I know that many SC manufacturers for BMW's engines change things like injectors, fuel lines and pumps, cam duration and overlap, spark advance relative to boost, fuel pressure, rpms, etc. And with VANOS there is another thing to think about.
I'm really not sure why there is a total difference between tuning aspects of the two engines. Maybe Hondas and whatnot like the boost delivery of a turbo, and BMW's take the almost instand on power of a SC. I know many BMW drivers like the linear power most modern BMW engines make, and I think the aftermarket tailors to that. Maybe thats it, FI depends on who is it marketed to...
But to throw a wrench in the works, Dinan used to turbocharge the M30, the 3.5L I6 from the 80's. I had a ride in one of those, and holy shit that bay boy hauled, while still having some good torque. Now Dinan mostly does SC kits, with the S3 SC package coming out for the E39 M5 soon...:drool:
Maybe I'll get bored and email Steve Dinan and see what he has to say.

(responding to your post on the other thread but..)
in re: to e46fanatics.com. It seems like a bunch of guys who are just loaded with cash, pay for everything to get done while not being able to relay any good info to other forum members. There's a few cats on there that seem to be knowledgeable...but a few being like less than five.

I actually don't think I'll be going FI when I find a BMW, well maybe not soon after at least. I'm actually just curious as to how BMW engines are. You recommended an M3 forum on the other thread, are there alot of knowledgeable cats on that site for the non-m model bmws?

I hear you on applying honda info to bmw. My questions just stem from how the workings of one compare to the other, ya know what i mean? I just recently got infatuated with BMWs so i've still got alot to learn.

Sorry about "complete tuning" description. It was late/early as hell and couldn't word it any better. One of the most effective ways of making more power from what you got on the b-series engines is stand alone ecu's, which i'm sure probably could apply to other engines. But its really costly. They'll take a SA like Hondata or AEMs EMS and tune across the entire power band. They've been saying thru that means, it allows for higher comp FIed engines, factoring in reliability. A few guys i've talked with are taking the next step after WOT tuning, doing partial throttle tuning. There was one guy I talked to that squeezed all the power he could out of a GSR with AEMs EMS and had this awesomely flat TQ curve from 3500rpm (if i remember correctly) to redline.

Also, would you mind posting which bmw engine is to which car. I.E. you mention the S54 and i think M&Ms M20 or something along those lines. E46fanatics doesn't have the greatest articles section so you're kinda losing me with the engine codes. What can i say I'm a BMW noob!

Good times.

Oh yea, I'm a big fan of sweet handling. On my teg that is the first thing I wanted to work on. Since bmws are rwd are they prone to bad oversteer? The one thing i hated with my teg was it was an understeering whore. I modded it to as neutral handling as financially permitting, and loved it. with a bit more cash it would have only gotten better. I know bmws are referred to as the ultimate driving machines but do you know of any areas where their suspensions could use a little help?

lol, sorry for loosing you on the engine codes. I run down the basic ones.
M50TU- 2.5L I6 that is in M&M's car. TU stands for technical update, meaning it has VANOS
M30-Old school 3.5L I6 from the 80's till early 90's.
M52- 2.8L engine that is in the E36 328, E39 528, and E46 328.
S50/S52- 3.0L and 3.2L engines used in the E36 M3. 95 and 96 had the S50, 97 and on had the S52.
S62-mighty 394HP E39 M5 V8
S54-333hp 3.2L from the E46 M3.
S38B38-3.8L engine from the E34 M5. If you have seen Ronin and heard that engine wail (that one was actually a S38B36, the 3.6L) then you know how nice those sound. Listen here: http://www.bmwworld.com/images/sounds/m5.mp3
Thats a quicky list of some of the more common, and best ones.
Here is a good list of them that I found: http://www.bmwworld.com/repairs/codes/engines.htm
M3forum is pretty good even for non M cars, as most people there know a fair amount about 3 series, either through upgrading from non M 3 series to M3s, or b/c they drive non M cars. Good group of guys there, you'll get some good answers most of the time (webboards are always hit or miss).
I wouldnt go FI with a BMW engine. You can, and it will make good power, but the linear power in those is so great, that any boost profiles whatnot will only detract. A supercharger can help, but I guess being a total purist I see FI as going against a lot of the design philosophy. But then again, more power is a good thing.
I understand you now on the SA systems. I am not sure if any tuners use that or not, I really cant say. I know that from the factory BMW makes sure the part throttle and hp/tq curves lend themselves to effortless acceleration, and with VANOS makes sure you have the best it can give based upon the situation, regardless of throttle setting etc. Getting the best you can at any given time seems to be a hallmark of theirs.
Well if you are a fan of sweet handling, then you chose the right car. Most BMW's inherent trait is mild understeer, for safety sake. Almost all BMW's I have been in and around are like this, but, oversteer is easily available. The great thing about oversteer is that with the back of the car light (but not stepped out too far), you reduce your understeer. A corner taken full tilt in my old E39 meant that I wasnt countersteering or even steering neutral, I just had less steering dialed in to keep the back from going out farther. Less steering input = less work for the tires, and then less understeer. If you just whip the wheel into a corner, you will understeer, but if you know how to set the chassis of a car (by flicking it, trail braking, left foot braking, agressive turn in and then backing out some steering, lifting off the gas at turn in and then getting back on it, to name a few), then the car has the basic trait of almost pure nuetrality, with a oversteer a slight command away. It takes time to get good with a BMW, but once you do, they are heavenly. My boat of an E39 could take corners faster than almost anyone would imagine, even in a sports car.
I think the only thing to help out the non M cars is stiffen them up a bit. Most non M BMW's are a little soft by performance car standards, although they do stay pretty flat in corners. I know they could be stiffer for higher limits. But trust me, if it is your first time in or around a BMW, dont mess with the suspension till you can fully exploit it. Once you find the limits, then go for more; dont do it off the bat.
For the M cars, there are some wicked setups. ASC DFC is a nutty setup for the E39 M5, and is rumored to make the thing a total monster in the turns. Dinan does great work, and his S2 package supposedly makes the E39 M5 ride nicer than stock, while making it handle better.
Well, that should be enough for now, but as always, ask away. Sorry if I talk over your head, I'm kinda like Will Farrel in "Old School" during the debate. I start talking about BMW's go into a trance, and come out with a long string that might be hard to follow.

Hahaha, im just messing with u guys, couldnt resist

lol M&Ms.

Barry, I follow ya and pretty much most of what you've put down. I still just need to get use to the bmw jargon. I'm just use to integra jargon so I'm having to translate from one to the other in terms of tech and spec.
yea, I'm not really too experienced with the FI side, I was planning on boosting my b18 but decided against it. I was just curious as to what bmw had to offer, but the one thing that scarily stood out to me was the price to FI them. It seems outrageous.
Now about VANOS, my basic understanding right now is that its bmws equivalent to hondas vtec?
I don't plan on modding soon after I aquire a bmw, it will be my first luxury so I plan on getting as aquainted as i can with her in and out then modding as necessary. With my integra I found the areas in her suspension that i felt needed work and touched up until i was satisfied. How is the sport package in the e46s? Is it alot more agressive than w/o.

BTW, are you just a bmw nut or cert. bmw mechanic? You know a hell of alot and speak from experience man. Thats pretty awesome!

Not a mechanic, I just know a fair amount about BMW's. What's scarry is that I know more about airplanes, but hey, when you are passionate about something....
VTEC and VANOS are similar in that they change cam profiles, but VTEC does it at a certain rpm everytime, and VANOS is always adjustable. So with VANOS there is no on VTEC spike like there would be in a Civic or Integra, or like the S2000 (worst offender of VTEC spike). BMW's just give you what they have, and VANOS constantly adjusts itself to give you the most advantageous cam profile from idle to redline. It's pretty fucking ill. It's like VTEC x 10.
A sport package on an E46 firms the ride up, makes the car track in better, and gives it better poise. But you can do it aftermarket and do it cheaper, so it's a cointoss. If you dont mind spending the extra bit of money (and you will be buying used, so the price differential will not be that bad), I would go with it. It puts the ride to an acceptable level while giving you a fair bit higher limits.

Holy shit, that's awesome. Vanos is constantly adjusting according to the "driving situation?" (again, can't think of better description.) That is sweet! Stock, vtec always engages at 4400rpm, unless changed thru the use of a SA, VAFC, or other vtec controller. I can see how it would be vtec x 10!

VANOS is cool, and I can say this from personal experience. Nothing nice then the car pulling in any gear through the whole RPM range...wonderful! Saves my stick n00bie ass from having to shift all the time lol

Yeah, think of it this way; you get a performance spike at a certain RPM with VTEC. With VANOS, every rpm is that powerful rpm. It's tits. No waiting till more power, it just fluidly builds all the way to redline. Enough torque to light your sweet mama's panties on fire, and a strong ass surge all the to redline. That is how it is done, IMO, when you want a car to make good power.
You can catch it out of the powerband by doing dumbshit like 5th gear 20 mph turns uphills, but if you keep the rpms over 1500 all the time, you wont be short of acceleration. Ever...except maybe on a huge hill, but you get my point.

Ah, well I test drove a CPO standard 325i jet black/sand interior the other day. I have to say its a big jump from the teg I'm driving right now!
Torque is lovely relatively early in the powerband! Something I don't have in the integra. Luckily my sales rep was cool and actually encouraged me a bit to rip it to 5500rpm! It was a good drive and really impressive. There is a big difference between that and the 91 525 i drove a while back. I like the 325 so much more! I can only imagine how the 330 feels, now only if i could afford one.

The old E34 525 you drove had the M50 in it, and since it isnt the later M50TU that means that it didnt have VANOS. The only non vanos M50 I have driven was in a E36 325is (1992), and it was dead till 3k. With the modern engines it is much better, as like you noticed there is instand on torque.
Night and day between the 330 and the 325. To try and put it into context, it's like an Integra LS verses a Type R. They are pricey as hell though, which sucks really bad. Sometime in life.
If you liked the 325, try to find a CPO 328. THe M52 in that is good for some more ponies and more torque, and that compliments the sporty chassis better. Those stopped production in 2000 I think, so some CPO's should still be floating around. Go CPO if you can, it can make a world of difference if something fails.
The '28 will accelerate about 1/2 to 3/4 a second faster to 60 than the '25, and be about 1/2 faster in the 1/4 mile.
Whatever you end up with, I think you will be a very happy guy, so good luck shopping for the right one!
BTW, I did a driving event a few weeks ago where I got to drift the ever loving crap out of the E46 325, so I can now first hand attest to how balanced that chassis is when drifting. Too much fun...

Barry I'm jealous. First off, i wouldn't think about drifting my own 3 series but to have the chance to would be awesome! I saw a vid of one a little while back, it was in europe and the guy pulled it through an almost full circle off-ramp of some sort. It was just crazy!
Yea, I assumed the 330/ITR vs. 325/LS analogy. But just like the 330 the price difference is there with the ITR. There is actually a '00 328 at BMW Honolulu here but it couldn't be Cert. b/c it was modified. Lowered, 19s, dvd, bodykit. It's going for $27,000.
What sweetens the deal for me in regards to the CPO is that warranty. Of all the CPO's here they are mostly lease returns and with the CPO warranty goes till '06/'07. And what I found out was that all the cars bought in '00-'02 were serviced free for the term they were leased. So i know the cars were maintained, making for another deal sweetening point.
What driving event was that you attended Barry? Was it a BMWCCA one? I've been hearing of them doing events here every once in a while, offering driving/racing schools; showing owners what their cars are capable of, etc. Seems really interesting and fun.

The driving event wasnt a BMW CCA event, it was an event sponsered by Bridgestone. It was meant for 16 year olds, but my friends brother works at some of those events, so he got us in for free. I was only supposed to correct the slide that the instructor started with the ebrake, but my dumbass turned it into a little drift practice. I am rustier than hell, but I still booted that bad boy way out and kept it there for a good amount of time. Ahh the good old days of having a rwd car...
Sounds like the best thing for you is the E46 325 then. CPO warranties are worth so much in the long run, and I would always tell someone get a more expensive CPO car over a cheaper non CPO. Most BMW's are tanks, but when they break they have expensive parts, so it is good to have all of your bases covered. Looking back on my posts, it seems I am a little spoiled, as the 325s jam along well, but I fall into the "must go faster" category (except my poor ass drives a Jetta now). You'll be stunned when you get one, as you will constantly think "this is my nice ass ride" and be tripped out when you realize you took that off ramp at 100mph. Good times indeed...
Here is a good BMW drift video I like: http://www.8200rpm.com/stuffvids/vk...penburg2004.wmv
And another of Andre, some of the best non professional drifts I have seen on tape:http://members.chello.nl/adevo/andreupload.WMV
I used to be able to bang out drifts like these on on and off ramps, but those days are over. I can still drift, but not at the speeds I used to, and not with the same smoothness. My E46 drifts were a little rough, but fun nonetheless. I need more time with a RWD car again, and I need the confidence I used to have. I dont really care that much though, as I have planes to keep me happy now, so going mobbing and buying a car just to mob are kinda moot (except for a beater; I mean buying a nice car to mob around in).
Enjoy the videos!

When you do pick up your BMW phenom, leave RMS out when you look at doing some mods. Some serious shit has come out about him, like sucking my friend Rob's money, and putting over 4000 miles on Robs E39 M5, and not doing any work to it.
If you want to hear some sad shit, I can shoot you a link to the M5board where we are discussing it.

RMS? I'm drawing a blank... The name sounds familiar. Is that a specific shop, company, etc.? When the time comes I'll probably be going through a shop here in Hawaii, but I have yet to find a reputable one here. Or maybe in SoCal, depending on where I end up going to grad school.
Yea...those CPOs surely seem like the way to go. I just want that piece of mind knowing if something fails (of course not due to user error) that I'll be covered.
Btw, those drift video's are dead links I think. I tried on IE then copy'ed/pasted to WMP and nothing played.
Planes? So do you fly? Sounds interesting.

RMS was one of the tuning companys I recomended for modding out a BMW. Seems they ran into a little trouble, so I would stick with Dinan if you plan to mod it when you get it. Doesnt mess up your warranty either, whereas RMS mods would. You can check Dinan's website, as there might be a Dinan authorized dealership out in Hawaii.
Sorry about those links, they sure are dead. If you're ever on AIM, hit me up, my s/n is MyFemurHurts, and I can send them to you.
Yeah, M&M and I are both pilots at a private aviation school out in Arizona. He is about to get his multiengine rating, and I am about to start working on my instrument rating. It's pretty chill.

Okay cool, I hear you about RMS now. The time I start modding the BMW will most likely be a while from now. I'd still have to get use to how it handles and how well it performs. Then from there, if I see areas it could be improved upon I'll mod. The nice little test drive I took was highly satisfying though, so I'll have to search for those areas if any!
So you say Dinan doesn't void warranty? The dealer never mentioned that. Is Dinan a BMW affiliate?
Wow, so both you and M&M are pilots huh? That's pretty damn cool! I hear flight school is pretty expensive! Good stuff!

Yeah, it is best to learn the stock car, and then mod the things you dont like. My guess is in 6 months of ownership there will be things you will want to change ( I know I had things I wanted to change), so it is something to keep in mind.
Dinan warrantees their parts, and BMW does the same. Any Dinan parts are covered by Dinan, and BMW parts are covered by BMW. This is contrary to having another comapny mod your BMW, as sometimes BMW will not warranty a stock BMW part b/c you have a aftermarket modded part installed. With Dinan this is not an issue. It's like having modded parts under the original warranty.
Yeah, M&M and I want to fly for a living, and I better get a job doing so if I want to keep up my expensive love for BMW's. Hell, M&M too, I seem to have that guy hooked. It's pricey indeed, but that's what loans are for! :crys eyes out: It's mad fun, but takes a lot of effort, but it is totally worth it everytime I get a new rating.