Who's responsible for your sorry ass?

Healthcare's drain on society - Why do we do it?

So, I have this uncle, who's been behind a desk most of his career, in a government job. He's been retired for 18 years. 80 years old, double-dipped the system for 15 years, maintaining two homes and lot of travel. He's heavy, out of shape, does nothing but stumble around the mall and the restaurant, if he's not sitting in his recliner at home sipping a beer or downing a plate of chow, while his wife eats his ear from across the roof in her nagging, piercing voice.

He hasn't contributed crap to society in ages, has one kid who lives 600 miles away, who only comes home when she's guilted in to it. He has had 3 major heart or arterial surgeries in the past three years, at a world renouned clinic, spent months in the nursing home and home healthcare.

He hasn't had to pay a dime out of pocket.

Now I'm all about living as long as you can, but why are those who's lives are hardly worth living being extended at ASTRONOMICAL expense to the public? I think if you've saved your money and have the opportunity to blow your kids inheritance by giving it to the hospital, that's your right. Buy why should the rest of us be obligated to carry your ass into oblivion when you didn't even have the decency to put a couple of handholds on your throne?

So, is there a point in time where the productivity of the patient should dictate the amount of money spent on keeping them alive?

What role does your pension promises, medicare/medicaid, government/private, and your own self discipline play in the mix?

I have a friend living in the US...she's 27 years old and was diagnosed with MS a little over 4 years ago. At the time of the diagnosis she didn't have any health insurance. So now, because her MS is a pre-existing condition, she doesn't qualify for any insurance. She used to qualify for a grant from the government that paid for a medication that is proven to slow down, and in some cases stop the growth of brain lesions...but recently she started making more money, and no longer qualifies for this grant. The medication that she used to take is $5000 per month (don't get me started on the drug companies). There is no way she can afford to pay for these meds, as the raise she got, just barely put her out of the bracket required for the grant.

The whole situation is appalling to me, in a few short months, I've witnessed my friend go from a person with MS that manages its very well, hardly ever having a bad day...to a woman who on average has 10 days a month in which she can barely walk. And why?? Because someone, or some group decided that if you make less than $65,000 a year you get a grant, but if you make more than $65,000 a year...you have to pay for the meds.

@ SP - yeah basically the only way she's going to be able to get coverage now is if she's on a group policy through an employer, in which case the policy recognizes no pre-existing conditions when it comes to acceptance for the policy. however even then they wouldn't cover anything related to the pre-existing condition for a year.

the whole system is ridiculous.

Quote:

Originally posted by bustMall

Healthcare's drain on society - Why do we do it?

So, I have this uncle, who's been behind a desk most of his career, in a government job. He's been retired for 18 years. 80 years old, double-dipped the system for 15 years, maintaining two homes and lot of travel. He's heavy, out of shape, does nothing but stumble around the mall and the restaurant, if he's not sitting in his recliner at home sipping a beer or downing a plate of chow, while his wife eats his ear from across the roof in her nagging, piercing voice.

He hasn't contributed crap to society in ages, has one kid who lives 600 miles away, who only comes home when she's guilted in to it. He has had 3 major heart or arterial surgeries in the past three years, at a world renouned clinic, spent months in the nursing home and home healthcare.

He hasn't had to pay a dime out of pocket.

Now I'm all about living as long as you can, but why are those who's lives are hardly worth living being extended at ASTRONOMICAL expense to the public? I think if you've saved your money and have the opportunity to blow your kids inheritance by giving it to the hospital, that's your right. Buy why should the rest of us be obligated to carry your ass into oblivion when you didn't even have the decency to put a couple of handholds on your throne?

So, is there a point in time where the productivity of the patient should dictate the amount of money spent on keeping them alive?

What role does your pension promises, medicare/medicaid, government/private, and your own self discipline play in the mix?

The bolded is incorrect. He essentially paid for the treatment he's receiving now through his contributions to Medicare for the years that he did work. That's sort of why Medicare is a "sacred" program in the United States - because it's not seen as a redistributive policy like Medicaid and Welfare are, but because everyone pays in and everyone gets the benefits when they're older, regardless of their income. It's seen as a gigantic insurance company, basically.

That's like saying that if I got into a car accident tomorrow I wouldn't have to pay a dime out of pocket. Well, no, but over the last however many years I've payed thousands to the insurance company so that they'll pay up when it comes time I need to use their coverage.

I also have kind of a large problem with your categorization of him. Not him particularly, because you might be right that he's a leech on society, but those judgements in general, because the thing is, who would you put in charge of that system? Do you really want the government to be deciding who is no longer useful to society and thus cut off their benefits? I can imagine about a billionty-seven number of things that could go wrong with such a system.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

billionty-seven number of things

That's a lot, you guys.

Over here in the UK we seem to give free healthcare to anyone and everyone, irrespective of age, income, or even nationality. Working people pay Natiinal Insurance, as do companies too, which i assume pays for hospitals etc.

We get a lot of 'healthcare tourists' and asylum seekers who enter our borders, wether legally or not, and use our system to their advantage, without contributing a penny. We may have a duty of care, and all medical personell take the Hippocratic oath, so nobody obviously ill gets turned away, however these people ate obviously a drain on society and public funds, and make our hospitals full, with overworked and underpaid nurses. Thats not to mention our benefit scroungers also who sit on their arses and play xbox, and dont contribute either.Then to top it all off, the NHS gets criticised for long waiting lists and lack of beds, and because standards have slipped, due to short and understaffed wards.

Makes my blood boil at times!

SP, I think Paddy's saying your friend should move to England!

I have always been proud of the English healthcare system.

I've recently moved back to the UK after a few years in mainland Europe and have experienced both sides of the coin.

I worked in a country called Gibraltar and lived in Spain. Something happened to me last year which I don't want to go into but it almost cost me my life. I had free healthcare with the company I worked for. It happened to me in Spain. I was rushed to a Spanish hospital but then it was found my healthcare cover didn't cover what I was in hospital for. I still got treated, sort of, they put a drip in me that didn't work. Refuse to give me any food or water. No doctor would see me either. I could of had free healthcare in Gibraltar because it is still partly governed by the UK. The Spanish hospital would not let me be discharged however or let me go to the Gibraltar hospital.

After a night my company had to pay £5,000 which in US dollars is just over 8k for me to go to a private hospital in Spain for a week.

So that's my experience of a system where money counts, and I did not like it at all.

So my experience of a system that doesn't charge you?

After a week and a few heated arguments it was agreed to let me go to Gibraltar for further health care. I immediately saw a specialist that I needed and was admitted to a rehabilitation center for 3 months, give or take. I received top quality care that I still believe saved my life that would of cost if I had to pay for it around £40,000 (US$65,000).

I also received a free aftercare service that I could of used for life, however I moved back to England in august so got about 8 months worth of care.

I had been working in Gibraltar for 3 years so whilst I was paying taxes, I hadn't payed anything like what was spent on me. I'm not sure how much taxation people get in other countries but I payed in total about 20% on my wage. I don't know how tax is broken down but it's not just health cover that the tax covers, it's other things they deem we have to pay for.

I don't think these two situations compare and I'll be the first to admit I don't understand the american system because I don't know anything about it but I'm not understanding why you was so against it when it came up last year, or this year, recently anyway.

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy!

Over here in the UK we seem to give free healthcare to anyone and everyone, irrespective of age, income, or even nationality. Working people pay Natiinal Insurance, as do companies too, which i assume pays for hospitals etc.

We get a lot of 'healthcare tourists' and asylum seekers who enter our borders, wether legally or not, and use our system to their advantage, without contributing a penny. We may have a duty of care, and all medical personell take the Hippocratic oath, so nobody obviously ill gets turned away, however these people ate obviously a drain on society and public funds, and make our hospitals full, with overworked and underpaid nurses. Thats not to mention our benefit scroungers also who sit on their arses and play xbox, and dont contribute either.Then to top it all off, the NHS gets criticised for long waiting lists and lack of beds, and because standards have slipped, due to short and understaffed wards.

Makes my blood boil at times!

I don't agree with most of this, sorry Paddy

Good commentary.

I do believe that people like SP's friend should have lots of help. Same with other genetic diseases.

But how long do you think we should continue to pay exorbitant sums of money in order to simply extend a life that is little more than existence in it's present form? Such as the uncle I described?

Sounds like a clear case for goverment screening as a pre-qualification proceess before benefits. Why must I subsidize poor life style choices, and more over why don't have means testing for this stuff ? Why do smokers still qualify for the same benefits and the same low premiums as the rest of us ?

I say, throw the fat fucker out on the lawn and see which politcal interests use him as a poster boy for their cause. Health care is 15% of our economy and those whose fortunes ae dependent on this cash cow of a patient will not want to lose him either.

Pardon me....gotta puke !

Quote:

Originally posted by bustMall

Healthcare's drain on society - Why do we do it?

So, I have this uncle, who's been behind a desk most of his career, in a government job. He's been retired for 18 years. 80 years old, double-dipped the system for 15 years, maintaining two homes and lot of travel. He's heavy, out of shape, does nothing but stumble around the mall and the restaurant, if he's not sitting in his recliner at home sipping a beer or downing a plate of chow, while his wife eats his ear from across the roof in her nagging, piercing voice.

He hasn't contributed crap to society in ages, has one kid who lives 600 miles away, who only comes home when she's guilted in to it. He has had 3 major heart or arterial surgeries in the past three years, at a world renouned clinic, spent months in the nursing home and home healthcare.

He hasn't had to pay a dime out of pocket.

Now I'm all about living as long as you can, but why are those who's lives are hardly worth living being extended at ASTRONOMICAL expense to the public? I think if you've saved your money and have the opportunity to blow your kids inheritance by giving it to the hospital, that's your right. Buy why should the rest of us be obligated to carry your ass into oblivion when you didn't even have the decency to put a couple of handholds on your throne?

So, is there a point in time where the productivity of the patient should dictate the amount of money spent on keeping them alive?

What role does your pension promises, medicare/medicaid, government/private, and your own self discipline play in the mix?

I can't say I disagree with you , F.

[youtube]EW5IdwltaAc[/youtube]

Quote:

Originally posted by F1098

Why do smokers still qualify for the same benefits and the same low premiums as the rest of us ?

I think smokers have already covered themselves with the billions they pay each year in tobacco taxes.

Are you sure that you and your political party of choice will not get mileage with the "Big government meddling in your personal affairs" argument. I can here the whining from here.

The whining of Tea Party clones and their imaginary "Death Squads" in the health plan can be heard. OR...is that what you are really asking for in your example of the retired pig of a human being ? How do you organize a policy that precludes the fuck ups yet allows for compassion.

Quote:

Originally posted by bustMall

I can't say I disagree with you , F.

[youtube]EW5IdwltaAc[/youtube]

Quote:

Originally posted by 0ghash

...

I don't agree with most of this, sorry Paddy

What part of it don't you agree with?

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy!

...

What part of it don't you agree with?

We get a lot of 'healthcare tourists' and asylum seekers who enter our borders, wether legally or not, and use our system to their advantage, without contributing a penny. We may have a duty of care, and all medical personell take the Hippocratic oath, so nobody obviously ill gets turned away, however these people ate obviously a drain on society and public funds, and make our hospitals full, with overworked and underpaid nurses. Thats not to mention our benefit scroungers also who sit on their arses and play xbox, and dont contribute either.Then to top it all off, the NHS gets criticised for long waiting lists and lack of beds, and because standards have slipped, due to short and understaffed wards.

This Paddy.

So you don't think we do then?

Quote:

Originally posted by Paddy!

So you don't think we do then?

I think there are plenty of things wrong with our country. However stating such a generalisation, sprinkled with blatant racism and bigotry, to people who don't know the system so are obliged to believe what you have said due to lack of knowledge is just a little bit wrong to say the least.

I don't really want to get into an argument with you as I do believe everyone has a right to an opinion. I just don't agree with yours and by including asylum seekers, economic migrants, and other classes of people in the discussion when it adds no support to your point.

You've always come across as an educated man to me, so please don't take this as an insult or shot across your bows, just take it how I meant it.

A discussion is a discussion, I'd never take anything personal.

My mother and father both work in the healthcare industry and have seen this sort of thing first hand. Healthcare tourism does exist, and from what I understand is pretty blatant at times. As Im not in the particular industry I won't choose to comment on that, and apologise if any racist undertones were taken from my post.

However what I will add is that had the lady above who had MS chose to move to the uk, for whatever reason, (political or otherwise) she would be treated, irrespective of the amount of time she'd had the condition.

so let me get this straight,,do you think the government should decide who lives and who dies? I paid into the medicare and Medicaid and social security system my entire working life. And I thank God it was there for me when I needed it.