What's up with Israel?

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Originally posted by thegame14

anyone who says anything about Isreal targeting or killing Palestinians kids, I immediately know they have no clue and are just being sheep to the biased media.....

http://mondoweiss.net/2014/07/israeli-palestinian-children.html

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....The Agence France Presse reports their names and ages as: Ismail Mahmoud Bakir, 9, Ahed Atef Bakir, 10, Zakariya Ahed Bakir, 10, and Mohammad Ramiz Bakir, 11. The four kids from the Bakir family were playing soccer on a Gaza beach. The news outlet Media 24 posted this photo purportedly showing the before and after of the attack:

Now, keep in mind that Israel has some of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world, much of which is US in origin (as the United States directly subsidizes something like 25% of their entire military budget), and is very capable of carrying out precision attacks.

Then there's stuff like this:

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Richard Engel @RichardEngel
Entire blocks devastated in #gaza. Increasingly hearing calls for hamas to accept ceasefire.

Yeah, the flattening of entire blocks indicates precision strikes against Hamas targets, not actual widespread destruction of entire families.

It's not like Israel has an actual term for this kind of widespread terror: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dahiya_doctrine
From that link:

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The Dahiya doctrine is a military strategy put forth by the Israeli general Gadi Eizenkot that pertains to asymmetric warfare in an urban setting, in which the army deliberately targets civilian infrastructure, as a means of inducing suffering for the civilian population, thereby establishing deterrence.[1] The doctrine is named after a southern suburb in Beirut with large apartment buildings which were flattened by the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) during the 2006 Lebanon War.

Interesting interview of the former Israeli head of internal security. He makes some important observations about the situation, and the complicated nature of each side in the conflict.

http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/interview-with-former-israeli-security-chief-yuval-diskin-a-982094.html

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Originally posted by cowboy2284

Think about if Hamas was bombing your sorry ass everyday... would you respond in any way necessary to eliminate the threat??? I know i would if you wouldn't do whatever it took to protecr your kids and family who are getting bombed simply for existing then maybe you should go over there and live with them and take up the fight against isreal... the Jewish people have been persecuted for thousands of years andd just because they fight for what they have you blame them... you should be lucky enough to have a government that is willing to protect its people cause that sorry ass "president" im sure you voted for would just apologize from the Camp David fall out shelter if more muslim terrorists sent over bombs and rockets intent on blowing up America...

The IRA back in the 70s and 80s carried out widespread bombings in the Uk. The governments response wasnt lets just bomb the shit out if all of Ireland.

And let's look at Hamas rockets essentially they are nothing against Israel and it's iron dome. Before you start getting excited and wagging your fingers and start going you this and you that I never said Israel shouldn't defend itself. I said the govt of Israel is going beyond what it needs to do defend itself and not caring who gets killed. After all 43 Israelis killed (40 of them soldiers) to a thousand Palestinians killed. Hardly makes Hamas an arch nemesis does it

And here's an interesting turn of events...

http://nymag.com/daily/intelligencer/2014/07/hamas-didnt-kidnap-the-israeli-teens-after-all.html

yeah and Hamas doesnt purposefully hid in residential areas and is mosques so that when they are attacked their biased media can claim the attack was on women and children.... and that isnt done on purpose at all...... and one side Isreal their goal is peace, the other Hamas their entire mission in life, is to ensure the destruction of Isreal as a state, and the Jews as a people....yeah, they are the innocent ones... get a clue

What was...according to the media....Hamas doing storing rockets in that UN school ? ( Historical note: Many years ago the Israelis used the kibbutzs as a cover for ammo factories. Nothing new here. Waring parties do whatever they can for deniability and PR value.)

EL, those kids were killed by naval gun fire according to the news I saw. Hardly accurate, but if mulitiple shots were made it might make your case.

All in all, this is a war in which world public opinion is the prize, not kids or peace.

Mr. Cheese,

Yes, you are quite right. But as things evolve it appears that there is a real threat in the extensive tunnel work under/into Israeli territory that is hard to interpret as anything but a strategic threat. I think that is quite a different issue than the tunnels from Egypt into Gaza which are nominally for supply and that buys into the Hamas position of a blockade. Yes, dual purpose for sure but that is a separate argument.

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

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The IRA back in the 70s and 80s carried out widespread bombings in the Uk. The governments response wasnt lets just bomb the shit out if all of Ireland.

And let's look at Hamas rockets essentially they are nothing against Israel and it's iron dome. Before you start getting excited and wagging your fingers and start going you this and you that I never said Israel shouldn't defend itself. I said the govt of Israel is going beyond what it needs to do defend itself and not caring who gets killed. After all 43 Israelis killed (40 of them soldiers) to a thousand Palestinians killed. Hardly makes Hamas an arch nemesis does it

Make no mistake: Hamas is in the same league as al-Qaida, Boko Haram and ISIS. These are brazen dudes so unapologetic about their oafish ways. They’ve got strong views and the balls to fight for them.
usually when arguing sides in the Israel conflict people take either the short view or the long one.

The short focuses on the immediate conflict: The number of rockets fired by Hamas prior to Israel’s commencement of Operation Protective Edge; the June kidnapping and killing of three Israeli teens and the subsequent killing of a Palestinian teen.
The first item on a required reading list about the conflict must be the 1988 Hamas charter. This is a religious edict as much as it is a political roadmap.

In the first section they make clear “Israel will rise and will remain erect until Islam eliminates it as it had eliminated its predecessors." They’re not too concerned about international borders either, their vision “penetrates to the deepest reaches of the land and to the highest spheres of Heavens."

And then there’s this old chestnut they use, which comes from a hadith claiming to quote Mohammed: “The time will not come until Muslims will fight the Jews (and kill them); until the Jews hide behind rocks and trees, which will cry: O Muslim! there is a Jew hiding behind me, come on and kill him!”

By all means, care about the economic well-being of average Palestinians. But the folks on the ground are not wholly blameless. The game changed in 2006 when Palestinians voted in this terrorist organization. They should’ve seen this coming.
Hamas claims, batting eyelashes, that they stopped abiding by the charter once they sought office. Ha! That’s how politics works. When you’re an activist group you proudly wear your looney tunes views on your sleeve. Then when you’re running in elections you tone down the rhetoric for the voters. Wink-wink, nudge-nudge.

As the charter states: “Hamas has been looking forward to implement Allah’s promise whatever time it might take."
And anyone who wants to chalk up villainy on the side of the Jews must first consider a couple of basic facts.

The first is that the Jewish people can take a joke and a jab far better than most, which means their communities tend to be more laid back (as for the ultra-orthodox Haredi - well nobody likes them, not most Israelis and certainly not their hipster neighbours in Brooklyn).

This cultural trait is rooted in, among other things, how Talmudic scholarship is inherently self-critical and reflective.

Not so with much of the Islamic world. A 2013 Pew study found that there's an alarmingly high rate of support for restrictive sharia in many countries around the world. Sure, Western thought is indebted to Islamic philosopher Averroes for preserving and popularizing Aristotle. But today, Islam’s insecurities are so great that not only can they not draw cartoons of Mohammed, but the rest of us can’t – even though we didn’t sign up for their team.

As Mark Steyn argued – and was persecuted for doing so, because in today’s topsy-turvy world the truth is no defense – the future belongs to Islam. There are less than 15 million Jews in the world. Muslims? More than 1.5 billion. So while nobody's arguing all Muslims are hardliners, the numbers game suggests there are many rooting for Hamas out there. Likely more than there are Jews.

And this little tid bit from Micheal Coren:
Israel and Gaza. I hate the deaths on both sides. I hate the outsiders on both sides claiming to care. I hate the lack of empathy on both sides. I hate the hatred.

I hate the way the Marxists and their friends who supported Israel in the 50s and 60s now call Israelis Nazis. I hate the way Islamic fanatics pretend to care about the Palestinians when at the same time they slaughter their own people and use those same Palestinians as metaphorical and literal shields. I hate the hatred.

I hate the way sound-bite radicals with no sense of history or context refuse to grasp that Israel is not a product of design but of desperation, and that the Jews of Europe and the Arab world didn’t just decide to take a holiday but fled to anywhere they could be safe. I hate the way liberal Christians obsess about criticizing Israel when if European Christians had genuinely followed Jesus when it came to their Jewish minorities and not slaughtered them, expelled them, persecuted them, gassed them, Israel would not have come into existence. I hate the hatred.

I hate the way some on the right and in Zionist circles refuse to listen to the Palestinian experience and believe Israel can do no wrong. I hate the way some evangelical Christians think the ghastly battle over Israel and Palestine is some sort of Biblical combat and modern Armageddon to be fought vicariously by Jews and Arabs. I hate the hatred.

I hate it when North African thugs in Paris attack synagogues in the name of Palestine, beat up Jews in the street and then scream about human rights. I hate it that kids from Pakistan will say not a word about their home country’s blasphemy laws and murder of Christians but roar their hatred of Israel when they probably couldn’t even find it on a map. I hate the hatred.

I hate the singling out of Israel for condemnation but the ignoring of the murderous regimes that surround it. I hate the fact that Iran can hang young gay men, Syria can murder tens of thousands and Turkey can occupy two countries and deny the Armenian genocide but there are no demonstrations. I hate the hatred.

I hate it that when supporters of Israel, like myself, argue that there has to be another way, that Palestine has to exist and that the settlements are wrong, we are mocked as compromisers – I actually wear that badge with pride. I hate it when the same people who welcomed Soviet diplomats, sportsmen and artists and now welcome diplomats, sportsmen and artists from repugnant Arab dictatorships, boycott Israeli kids who can kick a ball or play an instrument. I hate the hatred.

I don’t have a solution, I don’t even have much hope -- and for someone who has spent so long in the Middle East, read so much, met so many people, listened to so many stories, I am I suppose a terrible disappointment. I’m obviously not as clever as those on both sides who know exactly how all of this can be settled. But I do know that I hate the damned hatred.

Allen_bradley I was going to write a response to what you said but got distracted by your hot chinese girls link

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

Allen_bradley I was going to write a response to what you said but got distracted by your hot chinese girls link

Hope you find something in there that you likey....

I have......a lot

Good taste, kudos

Hamas wants to kill all Jews plain and simple. That has been their focus. They just focused on building a terrorist base in which to attack Israel ie tunnels and bombs. Launching Missiles at Israel for many years now. How many countries would put up with that? Israel gave fair warning for the Palestinians to get out of harms way. Told them to leave. Hamas told them to stay. Hamas wanted to keep their human shields. Really shows how much they care about Palestinians. Hamas could have been focused on helping the Palestinians have a better standard of living. Instead they focused on getting weapons to fight Israel. Tiny Israel surrounded by enemies motivated by religious doctrine. I really can't blame Israel for wanting a buffer zone against attack. Yea War is horrible. Pin point bombing is not a reality in most wars. This is why you don't poke a tiger. Hamas got what it wanted. They told the civilians to stay for a reason. Many civilian deaths help their cause and the Palestinians pay the price. Just my opinion

Wow, where to start?

I'll just chime in in order of the post I'm responding to.

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Originally posted by Poida

They weren't big fans of the holocaust so why are they creating a new one with Palestinian children?

Nothing like asking a loaded and inaccurate question to try to frame a constructive debate. Your first post makes this an impossible question to answer, because the question you're asking isn't a real question.

A: Israel isn't creating a holocaust. They're not the lone actors in this circumstance.
B: Palestinians are not, in fact, a race.
C: Israel is clearly not intent on genocide, even if Palestinians were a race, which they're not
D: There are no death camps.
E: Even if A-D were true (which they aren't), Israel has not now or ever stated as a goal - or acted on a goal - of killing every Palestinian (which still isn't a race).

So your question is an unreasonable question, which is usually only asked by someone who is being unreasonable.

That's unfortunate, because this is an interesting and important topic, and one I feel people should discuss more often. Sadly, the opening post doesn't invite much discussion. Let's hope we can get past that anyway though.

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

In regards to Hamas don't solely make ur opinion of them based on what you hear on western news. Not saying they are angels but they aren't complete villains either.

I think it's ignorant and foolish to presume that someone only gets news from one source. There are many intelligent and educated people on this forum. While some or even many of the members here do only get news from one source (or one perspective even if it comes from multiple sources), many in this community intentionally seek out different perspectives and comments on things of this nature.

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

In regards to Israel for a country that understands what it's like to be almost wiped out seem to have no problem wiping out Palestinians.

This is another loaded statement that is unreasonable and demonstrably false. The reality is that if Israel wanted to wipe Palestine out, Palestine would have been wiped out 50 years ago.

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

Everything that happened to the Jews in Germany is now happening to the Palestinians

That's ridiculous, and it's demonstrably false. In plain language, "you're lying out your ass."

If you actually want to have a discussion and learn things, you can't do it by lying your ass off. If you want to share information with others, you can't do it by lying your ass off - people don't listen to someone who is telling them a bunch of blatant bullshit. If you're trying to sway others, lying is not a good way to do that because it undermines your credibility.

These types of statements serve no basis for discussion (because it's not a real thing, so we can't really discuss it). It also doesn't serve for thought or exchange of ideas.

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

On and podia I've worked for several charities providing medication for hospitals in Gaza, before it even gets anywhere near Hamas Israeli busybodies make it very difficult for the medicine to get through. Even to the point they will only allow a percentage through, never enough

It's certainly true that getting supplies in and out of Palestine is tough - but there are reasons for that. Not all of them are what we'd agree are "good" reasons, but some of them are. I have read from multiple sources that Israel does constrict supplies into Palestine. At the same time, the reason they are concerned about the supplies going into Palestine is because often the supplies that are labeled "food, clothing, medicine" and so on, are in fact rocket launchers or other weapons which are then used to kill not just Israelis, but also other people in Palestine.

I agree that restrictions on what goes into Gaza are tough - but evidence (an abundance of recent rocket attacks, guns everywhere, landmines, and so on) suggest that they are not tight enough.

Yeah, it would be awesome if enough medicine got through to be able to help everyone in Palestine. But there are good reasons that doesn't happen.

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

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Not at all Nightcruiser Israel has the right to defend itself however it also has the capability to be a bit more discriminate in its retaliation. They just choose not too, and the only thing holding them back going all out is how it would look in the international eyes

For all it's bluster Hamas doesn't even have the tenth of Israel's capability

World opinion is often the only thing that restrains a nation. The United States can be included here, just as almost any other nation in the history of the world can be.

But Israel does use restraint, and does go to great lengths to minimize the unintended consequences (usually civilian deaths) of its retaliation. That's not always easy to do, and certainly at times Israel has thrown restraint to the wind or even been an instigator. That does not mean that they don't try to use restraint and discretion in their actions however.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

Israel operates an apartheid state.

I agree.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

People forced to live in open air jails occasionally retaliate with ineffectual rockets.

Agreed. I hope that you will also agree that many of the people who live in those open air jails are there because they have continually and repeatedly helped others fire rockets into civilian areas - or done so themselves.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

Israel gets mad and indiscriminately kills men, women, and children in affected ares.

I disagree.

Israel does get mad.

Israel is not the only entity on Earth that gets mad.

Israel is not indiscriminate.

Israel is not the only entity who retaliates or strikes out - even within Palestine.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

Oh, also, this latest round of fighting was started by Israel's accusations that Hamas kidnapped and murdered an Israeli teenager. Except it just came out that the people who did that weren't Hamas. But oh well.

Agreed. Evidence suggests that Israel used this circumstance to their advantage and actively manipulated the media in an effort to create an excuse to take action.

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Originally posted by EricLindros

Now, keep in mind that Israel has some of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world, much of which is US in origin (as the United States directly subsidizes something like 25% of their entire military budget), and is very capable of carrying out precision attacks.

And that's supposed to substantiate what?

Like America has never had civilian casualties from our actions? We blow shit up on accident all the time. Our drones kill children on accident frequently. Part of that is because the technology is far from perfect (and let's be honest, what we use is better than what we give to Israel). Another reason is as others have stated previously - that the Palestinians often use children and civilians as military actors, or as human shields.

There is no weapon in the world that I know of - or that anyone else knows of who is allowed to talk about it - that doesn't have a risk of collateral damage. The leading cause of death in modern warfare is fratricide - "to kill one's brother." - Friendly fire is the leading cause of death on the modern battlefield. That's true for many nations, including the United States.

Clearly our weapons are not perfect. We do not give our best weapons to Israel or any other nation; we keep those for ourselves. Our best weapons still cause collateral damage.

Your assertion is over the top, Eric, and I'm disappointed. You're usually one of the most reasonable people I see on here. That said, sometimes I make an ass of myself too. I'll forgive you if you forgive me.

I do concede that Israel is capable of precision strikes, but that at times they do considerable damage to wide areas (such as a large group of buildings). That said, clearing out two or three buildings that are booby-trapped and filled with enemy combatants can be pretty damned tricky, even with precision weaponry (which isn't all that precise). It can be very costly in terms of the lives and resources of Israel's defense forces. It also gives the enemy a chance to bug out because it takes longer.

Sometimes, tough decisions have to be made.

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

The IRA back in the 70s and 80s carried out widespread bombings in the Uk. The governments response wasnt lets just bomb the shit out if all of Ireland.

That was a very different situation - and civilians still got hurt. You're not making a fair comparison, and you're neglecting that Britain couldn't pull off what you're demanding the Israeli's do, despite the fact that the British had a less volatile situation, more advanced weapons, more money, and it was in their own territory which the British could move about freely in.

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

And let's look at Hamas rockets essentially they are nothing against Israel and it's iron dome.

I think the dead Israeli's would disagree with you.

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Originally posted by SmellMyCheese

Before you start getting excited and wagging your fingers and start going you this and you that I never said Israel shouldn't defend itself. I said the govt of Israel is going beyond what it needs to do defend itself and not caring who gets killed. After all 43 Israelis killed (40 of them soldiers) to a thousand Palestinians killed. Hardly makes Hamas an arch nemesis does it

Just because Hamas is a weaker force that's prone to make bad choices and is more willing to sacrifice its own people's lives doesn't mean they're not a threat. Hamas most certainly is a threat, and any attempt to paint them as harmless is blatantly dishonest.

I wanted to add onto what I previously wrote, but since it's been there for a while and someone might be in the middle of a reply I felt it was unfair to edit my post instead of creating a new reply which would be plainly visible.

I wrote:

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I do concede that Israel is capable of precision strikes, but that at times they do considerable damage to wide areas (such as a large group of buildings). That said, clearing out two or three buildings that are booby-trapped and filled with enemy combatants can be pretty damned tricky, even with precision weaponry (which isn't all that precise). It can be very costly in terms of the lives and resources of Israel's defense forces. It would still result in civilian casualties as well, since the two or three buildings that are occupied by combatants are often surrounded by several buildings that house civilians, or the buIt also gives the enemy a chance to bug out because it takes longer.

Sometimes, tough decisions have to be made.

I'd also add that attempting to go into a group of seven buildings where two or three of them house enemy combatants would almost certainly result in a large number of civilian casualties regardless of the amount of extra time, focus, and risks that Israel placed on itself.

Any one of the two or three target buildings may also be being used by civilians, and in attempting to infiltrate the building and clear it out, the civilians will get hurt. Other buildings near the targets are probably also in danger, and would almost certainly take damage in the process. Thus, civilian casualties can't be avoided, but trying to do so would mean that enemy combatants got away, time would be lost, resources would be lost, and more Israeli lives would be lost - all for naught, since the civilians are going to get killed anyway.

It's really not a fun decision to have to make, but ultimately, because of the tactics Hamas and other groups of this nature use, it is often not possible to have a "sterile" field of battle where no one gets hurt.

The reality is that Hamas picks their positions to fight from. Israel does not get to choose that location - if they did, Hamas wouldn't ever be anywhere near a civilian school, and no civilians would get hurt.

Israel would actively welcome a battle free of civilian casualties.

Hamas, however, would not.

Well said Tarquin.

What makes you think that? have you got curly sideburns or do you actually know what's going on.

Excuse me - where is Palestine?No such country has existed since the British surrendered their mandate in 1948. How can you occupy a fictitious country ?

Palestine before Israel was owned by Britain and Jordan. Israel got Britain's colony. Before that it is all very complicated, but Palestine these days does NOT exist!!

It belongs to democracy unlike the Islamic theocracies surrounding it

I sometimes wonder how some people become adults and grow to senior ages and never actually question their authority. Fellows, what you all are witnessing today are a result of decades of quarantine and blockade by your lovely Israel. Yes, Hamas is 'Bad News' in your eyes because CNN, a Jewish owned and operated news media tells you so. Have you ever asked yourselves why there is a Hamas, or a PLO,or whatever armed group emerges from the rubble left behind by Israeli action in these areas? Learn to question what you're being told. There was once a 'Black Panther' group in America once because the Negro's felt that they were being taken advantaged of and treated unfairly. As soon as that was remedied, that group and others dissolved on their own. The Palestinians people were forcibly removed from their home land by the US and Britain and their land were given to the Jews as their new state. Then, the people of that new state, under the protection of America and it's allies, built 20 ft walls around the people in two different areas and restricted them from moving freely outside of the walls that they built. Also, they restricted all importation of any goods from anywhere to aid or sustain the people. Then, they, the Israelis, tells the world that the people don't like them and want to kill them. Hell guys, if anyone do half of that to you and your families, would you sit down with them and have tea? So, armed groups of men raise up to try and liberate their people from the crippling blockade and placed on them by the Jewish state. These groups are labeled 'Terrorist' by people like yourselves who only choose to look at the crust of the pie and ignore the total contents. Be fair now, if the Federal Government in the US tells the people of Texas that they can no longer own handguns nor can they no longer hunt, do you know what kind of uprising that would stir within Texas? Yet, when the Palestinians rise up to attempt to free it's people, you call them bad guys and terrorist. Go figure!!!