Wow, where to start?
I'll just chime in in order of the post I'm responding to.
Quote:
Originally posted by Poida
They weren't big fans of the holocaust so why are they creating a new one with Palestinian children?
Nothing like asking a loaded and inaccurate question to try to frame a constructive debate. Your first post makes this an impossible question to answer, because the question you're asking isn't a real question.
A: Israel isn't creating a holocaust. They're not the lone actors in this circumstance.
B: Palestinians are not, in fact, a race.
C: Israel is clearly not intent on genocide, even if Palestinians were a race, which they're not
D: There are no death camps.
E: Even if A-D were true (which they aren't), Israel has not now or ever stated as a goal - or acted on a goal - of killing every Palestinian (which still isn't a race).
So your question is an unreasonable question, which is usually only asked by someone who is being unreasonable.
That's unfortunate, because this is an interesting and important topic, and one I feel people should discuss more often. Sadly, the opening post doesn't invite much discussion. Let's hope we can get past that anyway though.
Quote:
Originally posted by SmellMyCheese
In regards to Hamas don't solely make ur opinion of them based on what you hear on western news. Not saying they are angels but they aren't complete villains either.
I think it's ignorant and foolish to presume that someone only gets news from one source. There are many intelligent and educated people on this forum. While some or even many of the members here do only get news from one source (or one perspective even if it comes from multiple sources), many in this community intentionally seek out different perspectives and comments on things of this nature.
Quote:
Originally posted by SmellMyCheese
In regards to Israel for a country that understands what it's like to be almost wiped out seem to have no problem wiping out Palestinians.
This is another loaded statement that is unreasonable and demonstrably false. The reality is that if Israel wanted to wipe Palestine out, Palestine would have been wiped out 50 years ago.
Quote:
Originally posted by SmellMyCheese
Everything that happened to the Jews in Germany is now happening to the Palestinians
That's ridiculous, and it's demonstrably false. In plain language, "you're lying out your ass."
If you actually want to have a discussion and learn things, you can't do it by lying your ass off. If you want to share information with others, you can't do it by lying your ass off - people don't listen to someone who is telling them a bunch of blatant bullshit. If you're trying to sway others, lying is not a good way to do that because it undermines your credibility.
These types of statements serve no basis for discussion (because it's not a real thing, so we can't really discuss it). It also doesn't serve for thought or exchange of ideas.
Quote:
Originally posted by SmellMyCheese
On and podia I've worked for several charities providing medication for hospitals in Gaza, before it even gets anywhere near Hamas Israeli busybodies make it very difficult for the medicine to get through. Even to the point they will only allow a percentage through, never enough
It's certainly true that getting supplies in and out of Palestine is tough - but there are reasons for that. Not all of them are what we'd agree are "good" reasons, but some of them are. I have read from multiple sources that Israel does constrict supplies into Palestine. At the same time, the reason they are concerned about the supplies going into Palestine is because often the supplies that are labeled "food, clothing, medicine" and so on, are in fact rocket launchers or other weapons which are then used to kill not just Israelis, but also other people in Palestine.
I agree that restrictions on what goes into Gaza are tough - but evidence (an abundance of recent rocket attacks, guns everywhere, landmines, and so on) suggest that they are not tight
enough.
Yeah, it would be awesome if enough medicine got through to be able to help everyone in Palestine. But there are good reasons that doesn't happen.
Quote:
Originally posted by SmellMyCheese
...
Not at all Nightcruiser Israel has the right to defend itself however it also has the capability to be a bit more discriminate in its retaliation. They just choose not too, and the only thing holding them back going all out is how it would look in the international eyes
For all it's bluster Hamas doesn't even have the tenth of Israel's capability
World opinion is often the only thing that restrains a nation. The United States can be included here, just as almost any other nation in the history of the world can be.
But Israel
does use restraint, and does go to great lengths to minimize the unintended consequences (usually civilian deaths) of its retaliation. That's not always easy to do, and certainly at times Israel has thrown restraint to the wind or even been an instigator. That does not mean that they don't try to use restraint and discretion in their actions however.
Quote:
Originally posted by EricLindros
Israel operates an apartheid state.
I agree.
Quote:
Originally posted by EricLindros
People forced to live in open air jails occasionally retaliate with ineffectual rockets.
Agreed. I hope that you will also agree that many of the people who live in those open air jails are there because they have continually and repeatedly helped others fire rockets into civilian areas - or done so themselves.
Quote:
Originally posted by EricLindros
Israel gets mad and indiscriminately kills men, women, and children in affected ares.
I disagree.
Israel does get mad.
Israel is not the only entity on Earth that gets mad.
Israel is not indiscriminate.
Israel is not the only entity who retaliates or strikes out - even within Palestine.
Quote:
Originally posted by EricLindros
Oh, also, this latest round of fighting was started by Israel's accusations that Hamas kidnapped and murdered an Israeli teenager. Except it just came out that the people who did that weren't Hamas. But oh well.
Agreed. Evidence suggests that Israel used this circumstance to their advantage and actively manipulated the media in an effort to create an excuse to take action.
Quote:
Originally posted by EricLindros
Now, keep in mind that Israel has some of the most sophisticated weaponry in the world, much of which is US in origin (as the United States directly subsidizes something like 25% of their entire military budget), and is very capable of carrying out precision attacks.
And that's supposed to substantiate what?
Like America has never had civilian casualties from our actions? We blow shit up on accident all the time. Our drones kill children on accident frequently. Part of that is because the technology is far from perfect (and let's be honest, what we use is better than what we give to Israel). Another reason is as others have stated previously - that the Palestinians often use children and civilians as military actors, or as human shields.
There is no weapon in the world that I know of - or that anyone else knows of who is allowed to talk about it - that doesn't have a risk of collateral damage. The leading cause of death in modern warfare is fratricide - "to kill one's brother." - Friendly fire is the leading cause of death on the modern battlefield. That's true for many nations, including the United States.
Clearly our weapons are not perfect. We do not give our best weapons to Israel or any other nation; we keep those for ourselves. Our best weapons
still cause collateral damage.
Your assertion is over the top, Eric, and I'm disappointed. You're usually one of the most reasonable people I see on here. That said, sometimes I make an ass of myself too. I'll forgive you if you forgive me.
I do concede that Israel is capable of precision strikes, but that at times they do considerable damage to wide areas (such as a large group of buildings). That said, clearing out two or three buildings that are booby-trapped and filled with enemy combatants can be pretty damned tricky, even with precision weaponry (which isn't all that precise). It can be very costly in terms of the lives and resources of Israel's defense forces. It also gives the enemy a chance to bug out because it takes longer.
Sometimes, tough decisions have to be made.
Quote:
Originally posted by SmellMyCheese
The IRA back in the 70s and 80s carried out widespread bombings in the Uk. The governments response wasnt lets just bomb the shit out if all of Ireland.
That was a very different situation - and civilians still got hurt. You're not making a fair comparison, and you're neglecting that Britain couldn't pull off what you're demanding the Israeli's do, despite the fact that the British had a less volatile situation, more advanced weapons, more money, and it was in their own territory which the British could move about freely in.
Quote:
Originally posted by SmellMyCheese
And let's look at Hamas rockets essentially they are nothing against Israel and it's iron dome.
I think the dead Israeli's would disagree with you.
Quote:
Originally posted by SmellMyCheese
Before you start getting excited and wagging your fingers and start going you this and you that I never said Israel shouldn't defend itself. I said the govt of Israel is going beyond what it needs to do defend itself and not caring who gets killed. After all 43 Israelis killed (40 of them soldiers) to a thousand Palestinians killed. Hardly makes Hamas an arch nemesis does it
Just because Hamas is a weaker force that's prone to make bad choices and is more willing to sacrifice its own people's lives doesn't mean they're not a threat. Hamas most certainly
is a threat, and any attempt to paint them as harmless is blatantly dishonest.