Russian Navy Captures Somalian Pirates

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

Forgive me if I find laws which allow murder via tying people to a boat and then blowing them all up a bit...well...barbaric and inhumane.

Do you guys ever really think about the inherent contradiction in the state murdering people to show that individuals murdering people is wrong?



Yes, I'm aware that these people are likely criminals, but that doesn't justify lowering ourselves to their level of activity. Civilized societies ought to be above that kind of activity. That's what separates "us" from "them," you know?

Yes, it was very barbaric and disgusting to watch. At the same time, it was almost refreshing though ... knowing that it was handled in almost "black and white" terms under the International Maritime Law.

Could you imagine if it was the U.S.A.? A few of the pirates would have been shot during the rescue, but the rest, we would be having trials for years and wasting tons of money on public defenders. The guilty ones(the pirates the ACLU were unable to set free) would be put into a prison, which Michael Moore would make a movie about how ufairly they are being treated ... unable to play soccer for more than 3 hours a day, no snack time, no Cuban health care for them. So in 2012, when 1/3 of the pirates have been tried, Europeans, Canadians and Australians will be chiming in about how evil we are for our handling of the Somali pirate situation. Our presidential candidates will be worried about perception abroad ... and Al Gore will win because global warming caused these Somali citizens to turn to piracy.

sorry porn addict dont include canada about complaining about unfair trials. i think im one of the only pro american canadians in the world...i wont be included in that lump. the video didnt show visually anything about anyone being tied and blown up. so to me thats a 3rd party assumption. one funny thing about right to fair trial...piracy is punishable on the high seas by death, it has been the american government and the beurocrats from x amount of countries that have decided to ignore maritime law and law of the seas in favour of pandering to potential votes. Piracy is an act of war and punishable by death, no trial, no deliberation. period. Do you think these pirates, who know inside and out about how the western militaries conduct their business, thanks to media and the internet, would offer you any such quarter? no, because its a battlefield and they will take what they want. when countries dont offer the ransom, and dont physically take back what is stolen or held hostage, they MURDER the people. when i was out there we found bodies floating in the water. These bodies belonged to the former crews of hijacked fishing vessels. they hold no compassion, and no regard for what we hold dear. you can argue all you want about humanity, fairness or what ever you want lindros. the fact remains that if you were on the receiving end of a pirate attack, all desire for fairness, trials etc will be outboard of your mind....and honestly you would be PRAYING that a non pussy nation when it comes to the law of the seas is out there to save your begging soul.

So by your own definition, Piracy is an act of war. Does that mean that during war time, any solider from the opposing side if captured, should be executed?

I'm sorry if I sound like some leftist liberal but I just don't think people should be allowed to execute whoever they see fit, if they believe that person is a pirate. While I don't pretend to know maritime law, I'm sure the section regarding piracy and their execution if captured is hundreds of years old, forgotten law if you will. If they are in fact prisoners of war, then they should be treated as such under the Geneva Convention.

First of all, Piracy Is considered "An Act of War" by International Maritime Law, But NOT between one or more Warring Nations. It is an act of War by individuals or groups of individuals against a Nation or its Commonwealths which affects it's commerce interest at Sea. Maritime Law has been around since the Greeks and Roman Empires and has been adhered to and respected by Most nations plying the vast oceans of the world and is Not considered a "forgotten" system of law by these maitime nations. Maritime Law is a much more widely used system of law than any other.

The Geneva Convention "Only" applies to nations or states that are considered at "war", whether War is declared or not.(for example the Vietnam Conflict)

Maritime Law allows for the Immediate disposal of any and all vessels and "Pirates" at the time the "Act of Piracy" is committed. Nations have the "right of capture of all salvage" and the right to "Deal" with the Pirates as seen "fit" by the aggrieved nation or nations.

the geneva convention applies to pirates?? sugarpie...read the geneva conventions.

no offense, but aren't you living in disneyworld?

these are bad dudes. killing & stealing from merchants, tankers, and even pleasure cruisers on the high seas for extortion & big profits.

and as far as your crying for them about conditions in somalia...the somalians need to fix that. that's what patriotic citizens do.

Az

Next time I go fishing, I'm going to find the next boat over, murder the occupants, take all their beer, fish and equipment, and then claim that they were pirates.

Apparently, that's how Maritime Law works. I don't need to prove anything; I can just claim that those guys were pirates and then I can do anything I like to them.


Gee, I don't see how that might be problematic at all.


BTW, Why do people who hijack planes or trucks receive trials instead of summary execution? What is the difference?


How is this different from saying, "Cops should just shoot all people they think are committing crimes?"


Finally, I don't agree that it's a cut and dry case that all pirates are to be executed, end of story. There are plenty of solid legal arguments that afford basic human rights and the protections of law to people charged with piracy. For example, Here's one, from the Tulane Maritime Law Journal.

From the article (since I'm assuming most of you don't have access to Westlaw, subscribe to the Tulane Maritime Law Journal, and aren't interested in paying $30 for it):

Quote:

Three significant humanitarian conventions afford protections to captured persons: (1) the Geneva Convention Relative to the Treatment of Prisoners of War (Third Geneva), (2) the Geneva Convention Relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War (Fourth Geneva), and (3) The United Nations Convention against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (UNCAT).

A very narrow group of captured pirates qualify as prisoners of war under the Third Geneva, which also requires that all captured pirates must be treated as prisoners of war until a competent tribunal determines otherwise if a doubt exists as to their status. [FN16] The Fourth Geneva affords no protection to captured pirates. [FN17] On the other hand, UNCAT affords captured pirates certain basic protections and limits those states to which the capturing power can turn captured pirates over for trial. [FN18] Finally, captured pirates are also protected by basic humanitarian law and moral duty. [FN19]

Quote:

Originally posted by azdesertrat

the geneva convention applies to pirates?? sugarpie...read the geneva conventions.

no offense, but aren't you living in disneyworld?

these are bad dudes. killing & stealing from merchants, tankers, and even pleasure cruisers on the high seas for extortion & big profits.

and as far as your crying for them about conditions in somalia...the somalians need to fix that. that's what patriotic citizens do.

Az

First of all...I love Disneyworld, so leave Mickey outta this.

But seriously, I didn't say that the Geneva Convention applied to pirates. The other poster said that piracy is an act of war, so if that is in fact true, I suggested that the Geneva Convention should apply to them.

As far as Somali living conditions being difficult and it being their responsibility, I agree. But then shouldn't it also be the Somali's that are responsible for punishing the Somali pirates? So we won't help them out, but we'll punish them however we see fit? Doesn't seem fair to me. I agree that these aren't the nicest people in the world, but I dont believe we should be able to just randomly murder people without trial. And before you say I'm too soft, I'm pro death penalty, I believe there are crimes that are unforgivable, but everyone deserves the right to a fair trial.

because you dont understand lindros, that maritime law occurs outside of a country's nautical mile limit. thats why. inside territorial waters, you abide by the country's particular laws regarding their waters. outside the country's limits, international maritime law states that acts piracy are met with justice that demigod and i have pointed out. go there, see what its really about, i understand you cannot differentiate the difference between what you keep saying and what is happening over there and in the philipine islands and i cant blame you for that. but apples and oranges and debating them when you have no understanding about it doesnt leave much for credibility.

Do you have a link to somewhere that has this maritime law written that says summary executions are ok?

Quote:

Originally posted by Cuja12

sorry porn addict ...

You son of a b**** ... how dare you call me that? Oh wait, maybe I am. Seriously though, since you referred to someone else as Demigod ... Pornaddict and Demigod are just labels of users on WBW. The actual screen names are above it. No big deal, just thought I'd let you know.

I think we are arguing about nothing here. The video is probably a hoax. I couldn't find any news stories about what (25 pirates being blown up at sea by Russian Military) is being shown in this movie.

I did find many stories about an incident in May of 2010, where the Russian oil tanker, "Moscow University", was rescued by Russian marines from the warship, "Marshal Shaposhnikov ".

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSTRE64521C20100506

Reports say that the Russians took 10 captured Somali pirates, and set them free in a tiny inflatable boat, about 300 miles from land with no navigational tools.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/africa/8675978.stm

Who knows what happened to the pirates ... but this video is probably some type of hoax. Why would the soldiers film what they are doing and release it? Doesn't make any sense