Obama Sets record for Deportation of Illegals

Didn't want to quote your whole post, SP but you're correct. It can be tough for a non English speaking person to do any of those things in America and we actually have a "press 2 for Spanish" service. Imagine another country where there is no such thing. There's a big difference between ordering in a restaurant and filing legal paperwork.

Even here in Canada, you can visit Montreal and probably be okay about 90% of the time speaking English, but travel a few hours to Quebec City, and if you don't speak French, you're fucked.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

Jenn brought up a good comment that got overlooked. Move to China, India, Japan, Portugal, Brazil, Mexico only knowing english and then try to complete your tax return...then tell me how well only knowing english works out for you.

A fair point. I couldn't complete those tasks on my own. I doubt anyone could if they didn't speak the language. Then again, I'm incredibly fluent in English and I still can't file my own tax return. I have to pay an accountant for that here - and I certainly do speak English quite well. High level English at that.

So no, I couldn't file my own taxes in Mexico - not that that's any different from me trying to file in the United States, but it would definitely be even more difficult for me to do on my own in Mexico.

But I'm willing to bet I can find an accountant that speaks English easily enough in Mexico, China, India, Japan, Portugal or Brazil.

So would my life be easier if I knew the language? Sure.

But would my life be severely hampered by only being able to speak English? No. It wouldn't.

I'd face some inconveniences. I'd probably be taken advantage of now and then. But overall... No, it wouldn't be the instant failure result you've stated it would be. On the contrary, someone could still be pretty successful in those nations without speaking the language. They'd just need to spend more time finding someone to help with the services they needed.

Reverse the roles however, and aside from Spanish - and even that's pretty marginal here in the US - there is no one that can help someone who only speaks German, Mandarin, Portuguese, and so on. A person who comes to America and cannot speak English is in dire straits, especially if they're also not a Spanish speaker.

But a person who only speaks English in any one of those other countries may have to pay an accountant an extra few dollars for his services, but aside from slightly higher costs and increased inconvenience, they really would be okay.

They'd be better off if they spoke the language of their region in addition to English, but they can in fact, survive just fine without a second language. The reverse of that situation however, doesn't result in the same outcome for someone who doesn't speak English in the US - especially if they also don't speak Spanish.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

...

Neither do taxes on a high-end wage. Or a middle class wage. I don't pay $13000 a year in property tax (which as EL points out, is where most school funding comes from). You'd have to be a pretty wealthy person to have a property tax that high, or at least a damn nice patch of prairie to roam on. Even so, education doesn't remotely make up the majority of a property tax. In many cases education is on par with police and fire service. There are several other local government entities (roads, bridges, water, etc) that also get money out of that pie - so even if someone did pay $13000 a year in property tax, they wouldn't be sending it all to a student's tuition.

There really aren't very many people on the planet that can or do pay property taxes that high - even the 1%. As has been pointed out numerous times in the press, over 7,000 people in the US that did not pay taxes in 2012... Were millionaires.

No, your garbage man cannot afford to pay a student's tuition all by himself. Neither can many other people in the world. Of those who can, many of them don't.

Edit:

I have a 2200 square foot home. Fully finished.
3 Bedrooms
2.5 baths
300 square foot patio, covered, finished.

My "assessed" value of my home is roughly $9,600 a year, of which I pay a tax of around 3.5%

I am single, no kids, never married. I have no car payment and I have a lot of investments. Thus, I am worth 10X my yearly income, and thus I am considered "upper class" in terms of my wealth (I can survive for ten years financially just dandy if I opted not to ever leave my house or work another day).

And I will pay about $360 in property tax this year, which will be sliced and diced, and the schools might get a whoppin' $80 to $120 of my money this year.

No, your garbage man doesn't pay $13,000 a year in school taxes.

Neither does your CEO.

Of course one years taxes don't cover the expense. You have to spread it out over time. You pay property tax for 60 years and if you have kids they are not in school for all that time, unless they are really, really slow. And don't forget all the other taxes, property, excise, sales, income, etc., etc., etc.,
On a side note, WOW, 2200 square feet of living space and you pay property tax of $360 a year! I have to pay that in less than a month. Where ever you live I need to retire there! Unless of course they don't speak English or French!

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

I'm incredibly fluent in English and I still can't file my own tax return. I have to pay an accountant for that here - and I certainly do speak English quite well. High level English at that.

So no, I couldn't file my own taxes in Mexico - not that that's any different from me trying to file in the United States, but it would definitely be even more difficult for me to do on my own in Mexico.

Its incredibly different. In the US, you could complete your tax return, and you'd do it perfectly fine. The reason you hire an accountant is so that you maximize your return, not because you can't read the document. You understand the document just fine, its the tax laws that you don't understand...but again, you can physically read the words. In Japan, not only could you not read the tax return, but you couldn't read the tax laws.
Lets compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. If you live in the US and only speak english, you can, without any help, complete your tax return, apply for a drivers licence, schedule a checkup at a doctors office. If you live in Japan, and only speak english, without any help, I doubt you could do any of these things. So no....English does not get you by.

I'm not debating that English isn't the world language for business, it probably is, but that wasn't what the comment in this thread was, its was about moving and living in another country, that one should learn the native language of that country. Business may be one thing, but once you get outside of the boardroom, the head office, the convention centre floor, then its an entirely different story. And I'm not just talking visiting as a tourist, I'm talking about living and working. You will find out very quickly that your assumption that English is enough to get by is not true...unless you want to depend on a translator for everything.

he needs to deport this one power hungry, socialist, dictator who was born in Coastal hospital in Mombasa Kenya, that would be great.....

Quote:

Originally posted by B0b11

... Of course one years taxes don't cover the expense. You have to spread it out over time. You pay property tax for 60 years and if you have kids they are not in school for all that time, unless they are really, really slow. And don't forget all the other taxes, property, excise, sales, income, etc., etc., etc., On a side note, WOW, 2200 square feet of living space and you pay property tax of $360 a year! I have to pay that in less than a month. Where ever you live I need to retire there! Unless of course they don't speak English or French!

I live in a very conservative area. Property taxes are astonishingly low, and the pop on the housing bubble didn't hurt either (resulting in my home being valued at about 60% of what it would actually sell for if I sold it) - and the assessor hasn't figured that out yet because none of my neighbors want to sell their houses, so there aren't any home sales in the area to substantiate the property value.

Thus I am the beneficiary of good fortune.

My mortgage is $1100. Including utilities and all the associated taxes and fees (including an HOA that costs $125 a month) I pay around $1300 monthly for my entire house. No car payment.. Single, no kids... Yeah, life's okay here.

God bless America.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

...
Its incredibly different. In the US, you could complete your tax return, and you'd do it perfectly fine.

You're giving me too much credit. I understand economics, not accounting. Taxes are a nightmare as well because I'm pretty diversified (ranch income, stocks, IRAs, 401k, 527, individual stocks, mutual funds, some bonds and a non-profit that I run on the side). It gets pretty sticky.

Thank you for the kind words. I think you'd be disappointed to see me actually try to do taxes though.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

The reason you hire an accountant is so that you maximize your return, not because you can't read the document.

See above. I know the things in life I'm good at. I know the things in life I'm bad at. I'll be the first one to tell you when I'm awesome. I also won't blow sunshine up your ass and tell you I'm good at something I can't do. I can't do taxes. Neither can a lot of other people.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

You understand the document just fine, its the tax laws that you don't understand...but again, you can physically read the words.

Okay, but I can read the words in Spanish too. I can also read the words in Portuguese. That doesn't mean I comprehend their meaning. When I'm reading a tax document I may as well be reading it in Spanish. Hell, I can even say the words. That doesn't mean I understand fuck-all of the gibberish coming out of my mouth.

You really are very sweet, Sugarpie. But you really have given myself - and most other people in the United States - too much credit. Inability to file a tax return is not uncommon. In fact, most Americans don't know how to file their own tax returns, and even among those that can file them the vast majority either have errors, or left good chunks of cash on the table.



Dear God this conversation has wandered....

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

In Japan, not only could you not read the tax return, but you couldn't read the tax laws.

So? What difference does it make? I'm going to an accountant either way. Besides, accountants to file tax returns don't cost that much. This isn't exactly a "make or break" moment for someone's lifelong success. People hire accountants all the time... It hardly means their life is ending.

My point was that I could easily find someone in Japan to file my taxes for me if I only spoke English. If someone in America wants to file their tax returns but only speaks Japanese... Um... Good luck with that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

Lets compare apples to apples, not apples to oranges. If you live in the US and only speak english, you can, without any help, complete your tax return, apply for a drivers licence, schedule a checkup at a doctors office. If you live in Japan, and only speak english, without any help, I doubt you could do any of these things. So no....English does not get you by.

You're mistaken, Sugarpie. As much as I like you I think you're underestimating how many of those things are available to an English speaker in another country, compared to how few are available here for someone that does not speak English.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

I'm not debating that English isn't the world language for business, it probably is, but that wasn't what the comment in this thread was,

Actually, it was a comment in this thread, and you did for a short while seem to take issue with it. It's as much a valid point in this thread as the one we're moving on to next:

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

its was about moving and living in another country, that one should learn the native language of that country.

And I agree. They should learn the language if they live there.

But they don't have to. Sorry, they just don't.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

Business may be one thing, but once you get outside of the boardroom, the head office, the convention centre floor, then its an entirely different story. And I'm not just talking visiting as a tourist, I'm talking about living and working. You will find out very quickly that your assumption that English is enough to get by is not true...unless you want to depend on a translator for everything.

Again I think you are grossly underestimating how commonly English is spoken in other parts of the world, even by regular folks. I also think you're underestimating the availability of English speaking people that can be obtained to help all the tasks you've mentioned in this post and then some.

The idea of getting a translator for a lot of things (not everything, but a lot of things), also isn't preposterous. Finding a friend or someone in the community one decides to make a home at, where someone speaks English and is willing to help with most basic things isn't hard.

This is even true in the US, and it's how a lot of immigrants get by. There's a small neighborhood of Vietnamese near where I live. Most of them don't speak a lick of English, but one or two of them do. They help each other. One person who does speak English figures out or finds a guy that can help them get a driver's license, and the next thing you know all 20 of them can drive. One of them acts as the translator for a large group. There are also a few Americans nearby that speak Vietnamese (not sure why - maybe they grew up near this small Vietnamese neighborhood or maybe they just happened to be interested in the language). Anyway, "why" isn't important. Obviously, people do. There are enough people around this small Vietnamese neighborhood that share information and work together that they can and do in fact, manage to survive here.

That's Vietnamese. In a tiny neighborhood (maybe 4 square blocks) of a highly conservative city... And somehow they find translators and manage to get things done.

I think you're grossly underestimating the resources that people can find and utilize - not just English speakers, but other language speakers as well. I think it becomes exponentially easier when the language in question is English, because it's far more widely understood and spoken than you seem to be giving it credit for.

I've traveled a lot, Sugarpie. I'm very reverent of local cultures, and I always do my best to learn about their entire culture so that I understand the customs and the norms, and so that I don't offend and so that I can respond positively when I encounter someone who wants to interact with me. I am not an arrogant American, and I'm not someone who stays in five star hotels. I've been in the military, I've been in hostels. I've slept and stayed in some shit holes. I've also stayed in hotels from time to time of course, but I'm not one of those guys that runs around having the limo pick them up at the best hotel in Mexico City so that I can then go pretend to visit with the locals down at the Tijuana polo club.

I've spent a lot of time with my feet on the ground and nothing more than a backpack - and I've never really felt as though I was helpless. In most cases, access to pretty much anything I've needed was available - not always conveniently - but available if I needed it - in every country I've been in.

And no, I have not always been in modernized countries.

I've been to some real shit holes.

I think you should visit some too. I think you'd be surprised how many Radio Shacks there are in Kuwait. I think you'd be surprised how much Mogadishu and Detroit have in common.

Tarquin, you've entirely missed my point about the tax return argument I was giving. Maybe YOU can't complete your own taxes because they are complicated...but the AVERAGE american could. I'm not giving anyone more credit than they deserve...If you can read the form, you can do it...maybe you can't do it to maximize your return, or maybe you misunderstand something, but the point is that you can read the document and you could put the right numbers in the right boxes. If you live in Japan and don't speak or read Japanese, I'd be surprised if you could even figure out which box to write your name in. People who understand the language the form is written in use accountants, not because they can't read the form, but because they don't understand the tax laws in order to maximize returns/benefits....or they're lazy.

I've traveled a fair amount, I've been to Venezuela, Peru, Chile, Mexico, Dominican, Cuba, and in my own country...Quebec. Mexico and Dominican were pretty easy to get around in without speaking Spanish...or their version of Spanish, but Venezuela, Peru, and Chile were not so easy...there were often times that we faced major language barriers...and we tended to stick to tourist type areas. And again my argument has NEVER been about travelling to other contries, its been LIVING in these places. There is a HUGE difference between travelling and living in a country...I don't care how off the beaten path you get while travelling.

Also...having a radio shack in Kuwait doesn't mean they speak english...it means they have a radio shack. I'm leaving for Mexico tomorrow morning, traveling to Cozumel for a diving trip and I called Avis to rent a car, and the first day I called, they had nobody in the office that could speak English. I did eventually call back and was able to speak to someone that could help me, but my point is, there isn't always that person.

We've hashed this enough I think.

I think you're underestimating the difficulty of filing taxes. You think I'm overestimating the difficulty. I don't think most Americans can fill out their taxes without making errors (which can be cause for an audit and huge fines), or without leaving money on the table that they should have been able to deduct. You disagree with me, I disagree with you.

No, having a Radio Shack in Kuwait doesn't mean they speak English, but it is indeed a sign of the services and reach of the English language. Radio Shack is an American franchise requiring American English in order to get a store - at least for the owner because that's what the contracts are in. That's what the corporate memos are written in. That's what the emails are written in.

I suppose you could still argue that this doesn't mean English exists in a Radio Shack in Kuwait - except that again, I have actually been to Kuwait, and the people working in the store (who may or may not have been managers) spoke English to me, just like the guy who drove me there in a cab chosen randomly off a stree, just like the folks in the schwarma shop, the music store, the clothing store, the jewelery store, the book store and the coffee shop.

You seem to believe that English is not common in other regions of the world. That's significantly different from my experiences and those I've heard from others. Again you and I will have to disagree.

Note: I am a nerd sometimes, so I did some checking on a couple of items.

I checked with my accountant. My math is indeed off. I pay $1600 a year in property tax, not $360 per year.

This is more evidence that filing my taxes isn't easy for me.

That said, I also asked my accountant how many Americans can't file their own taxes. My accountant said that fundamentally, most people can file a EZ tax form on their own. My accountant then pointed out to me that I have never in my life been eligible for that form, because I have ranch income, tax-deferred investments, traditional investment and have spent a substantial portion of my adult life working as a contractor rather than an employee. This was true even when I first turned 18. My accountant seems to agree that my experience in taxes is not a typical experience with taxes, and that most people really can and do manage to fill out an EZ tax form without too many problems.

So I concede that point.

My accountant also pointed out to me that they had in fact, gone to Thailand for some time for kicks and grins, and that when it was time for them to do their own taxes they went to the tax guy, who spoke English as most accountants in Thailand do, and was able to get the help they needed to file correctly without major costs and without major difficulty.

To further throw in random commentary, my accountant said that in the past she has had people who do not speak English at all walk into her office and set down the tax forms they get from an employer along with other pertinent paperwork, and even though she couldn't communicate with the person in question, was able to file their taxes correctly. She then reminded me that a form is a form, and if an accountant sees the right form they know what to do with it. That said, when she was in Thailand she didn't need to engage in this kind of "set it on the table and hope the accountant gets it right" because the accountants and most other business people in Thailand, understood English.

No matter what you think about Illegals, this is a sad situation for them just across the Mexican border:
http://edition.cnn.com/2014/02/21/us/u-s-mexico-border-purgatory/index.html?hpt=us_c2#cnn-disqus-area

"Tijuana, Mexico (CNN) -- Part of the fence separating the United States and Mexico sits about 50 yards away from hundreds of tunnel-like holes and makeshift tents where people live, stuck between two countries.

Trash surrounds the area, driven there by the sewage that runs through the nearby Tijuana River channel. The odor of rotting food and feces oozes from the ground; the warm weather and hot sun worsen the smell.

The stench makes it hard to breathe, and it's harder to fathom how any human being could live in these conditions. Yet, an estimated 4,000 people call this place home, a stretch known as "El Bordo," or "the border," wedged along the U.S.-Mexico border. It's inside Mexico, just outside the city limits of Tijuana.

With a disheveled shirt and shorts covered in dry gray sludge, Fernando Miranda smiles and points towards the fence, signaling the location of the place he once called home. He hasn't seen it in three years.

"I am heading back there and nowhere else. There is no way in hell I am staying here," Miranda said.

Life on the border is complicated

Miranda and the others living in El Bordo are stuck in between two countries and their laws.
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He has nowhere to go and no place to call his own. Miranda was born in Mexico, and 25 years ago he illegally immigrated to the United States, the country where he worked and prospered, where his children were born, educated and given better opportunities.

Miranda was sent back to Mexico in 2011, one of 2 million people who have been deported since President Obama took office.

Last year, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement removed close to 369,000 undocumented immigrants -- most from Mexico and Central America -- from the United States. About 40% of those deported were sent back through the San Ysidro Port of Entry in Tijuana, according to Mexico's National Migration Institute.

Opinion: Why I fasted for immigration reform

They arrive in Mexico with no form of identification, no money and often only the clothes on their backs. Most of those deported have no connection to Tijuana, no family or friends, and some can barely speak the language.

That was the case for 37-year-old Miguel Valdez, who was in the United States legally just last week. He grew up in Los Angeles, having arrived in the United States with his parents when he was 4 years old. His mother and father came in illegally, but as an adult, Valdez got a green card, a four-year college degree and a job as a computer programmer.

Then he got into trouble, arrested and convicted for drugs and illegal possession of a gun. After serving a five-year prison term, Valdez had his green card revoked just last week, and he was put on a bus and dropped off near Tijuana.

Valdez has been wandering the unfamiliar streets of this foreign city for days, unable to find food, a job or a place to sleep. He speaks so little Spanish that he's afraid to ask for directions or help.

He couldn't express in words what had happened to him: In the space of one week, he had gone from American resident to citizen of no-man's land.

"It just feels the gate ............"

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

That was the case for 37-year-old Miguel Valdez, who was in the United States legally just last week. He grew up in Los Angeles, having arrived in the United States with his parents when he was 4 years old. His mother and father came in illegally, but as an adult, Valdez got a green card, a four-year college degree and a job as a computer programmer.

Then he got into trouble, arrested and convicted for drugs and illegal possession of a gun. After serving a five-year prison term, Valdez had his green card revoked just last week, and he was put on a bus and dropped off near Tijuana.

Valdez has been wandering the unfamiliar streets of this foreign city for days, unable to find food, a job or a place to sleep. He speaks so little Spanish that he's afraid to ask for directions or help.

He couldn't express in words what had happened to him: In the space of one week, he had gone from American resident to citizen of no-man's land.

"It just feels the gate ............"

So, he went to the US illegally. He still had opportunity, got a green card, an education (probably paid for by real citizens), and a good job . Good for him, at least for getting a green card and an education.
But then he fucked up and broke the rules. Guns, drugs, prison...Really??? Why would anyone feel bad about deporting this guy?
The moral of the story, work hard, follow the rules, appreciate the opportunity you have been given, help others, and don't screw it up!

But all is not lost for Miguel, as stated earlier in this thread quite a bit of business is conducted in English, especially along the border. So with his good education and job skills he should prosper in his new found home land. Hopefully he will learn some Spanish and not screw up again. I doubt prisons in his new home are as nice as they are in the US.

Quote:

Originally posted by B0b11

...

So, he went to the US illegally. He still had opportunity, got a green card, an education (probably paid for by real citizens), and a good job . Good for him, at least for getting a green card and an education.
But then he fucked up and broke the rules. Guns, drugs, prison...Really??? Why would anyone feel bad about deporting this guy?
The moral of the story, work hard, follow the rules, appreciate the opportunity you have been given, help others, and don't screw it up!

But all is not lost for Miguel, as stated earlier in this thread quite a bit of business is conducted in English, especially along the border. So with his good education and job skills he should prosper in his new found home land. Hopefully he will learn some Spanish and not screw up again. I doubt prisons in his new home are as nice as they are in the US.

Well said Bob11
It's one thing to make a mistake but illegal drugs & illegal gun charges is more than a mistake. Those charges are typically a life style choice. There is no room here or anywhere for that kind of behavior and especially when you are here illegally.

There is 4000 people in that camp. Not just one

Quote:

Originally posted by moss

...

Well said Bob11
It's one thing to make a mistake but illegal drugs & illegal gun charges is more than a mistake. Those charges are typically a life style choice. There is no room here or anywhere for that kind of behavior and especially when you are here illegally.

It said he was in the US legally. Not being a citizen is not the equivalent of being somewhere illegally.

Quote:

Originally posted by kylecook

...

It said he was in the US legally. Not being a citizen is not the equivalent of being somewhere illegally.

Exactly. He had a green card. Granted, there are conditions to green cards, of which one may be not getting arrested for drug related crimes (I'm assuming) but he was still in the US legally.

Quote:

Originally posted by kylecook

...

It said he was in the US legally. Not being a citizen is not the equivalent of being somewhere illegally.

Oh your right, my mistake on words, drop all charges & bring him back then.
sugarpie is right (I hate saying that) A green card has a ton of conditions and it should. They can pull your card even for small infractions. Like I said earlier that is not a mistake, that is a choice...

One of the conditions of a green card is to not get arrested for committing felonies. Sorry bub, I can't say I feel sorry for you. You knew the rules and you broke them. He had plenty of time to apply for a citizenship which would have kept him from being deported but he chose not to.

Quote:

Originally posted by moss

...

Oh your right, my mistake on words, drop all charges & bring him back then.
sugarpie is right (I hate saying that) A green card has a ton of conditions and it should. They can pull your card even for small infractions. Like I said earlier that is not a mistake, that is a choice...

Pardon me for pointing out that yet another thing you posted was factually inaccurate. You could have just simply acknowledged that you were wrong instead of going "moss" on it. You're extremely predictable in your childishness.

There are millions of criminals who are US citizens. It doesn't make sense to kick them out of the country. And I don't know what exactly this guy did for his felonies, but it isn't crazy to think they were pretty mild. The war on drugs is, at times, ridiculous. People receive prison sentence for having recreational amounts of marijuana in some cases. And as far as weapons, plaxico burress legally purchased and had licensed a firearm while in Florida playing in the nfl. When he went to the New York giants, he brought his gun with him, although he couldn't legally possess it by NY state laws. That was a felony. I don't care to read more about this guy than what was posted here, but having a drug and weapon charge could be tame, rather than that he was a burgeoning drug lord.

Anyway, classifying everyone in the US who has a valid green card as an illegal is an inaccurate and stupid assumption. As is assuming that I implied he should stay in the United States. But whatever. I'm far too old to give a shit when folks who have chosen ignorance as their lifestyle continue to be ignorant.