GloBull Warming Says Dr Christy

Quote:

Originally posted by wampers74

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the only really bad part about ethanol is it's incredibly hygroscopic , so it attract and binds water molecules....

This is very true. If I drain the tank from a hedge trimmer at work into a glass container (to check for water or particles) and I don't put a lid on the container, It will start to turn cloudy after about 15 minutes. If left overnight, there will be an accumulation of water in the jar. I'm sure the humidity levels where I live take a role in that.

Quote:

Originally posted by Davey45

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This is very true. If I drain the tank from a hedge trimmer at work into a glass container (to check for water or particles) and I don't put a lid on the container, It will start to turn cloudy after about 15 minutes. If left overnight, there will be an accumulation of water in the jar. I'm sure the humidity levels where I live take a role in that.

that's why i only use clear gas (non ethanol 87 .89 or 93) in my yard equipment , those little engines have a diaphragm in the carburetor , and ethanol will eat those things for dinner..

Please explain why alcohol would be "more consistent during the season." You seem to be suggesting that drag racers use pump fuel be it alcohol or gasoline....when quite the opposite is true.

I am dying to hear your answer.

Also please explain your comment in an earlier post regarding the relationship between alcohol and volumetric efficiency.

For that one....well, I'll wait for your response.

Quote:

Originally posted by F1098

Please explain why alcohol would be "more consistent during the season." You seem to be suggesting that drag racers use pump fuel be it alcohol or gasoline....when quite the opposite is true.

I am dying to hear your answer.

Also please explain your comment in an earlier post regarding the relationship between alcohol and volumetric efficiency.

For that one....well, I'll wait for your response.

http://www.killerrons.com/12.cfm

that explains the alcohol seasonal performance ...also i never suggested drag racers get their fuel at the pump , i know very well this is not true. we got to this argument because of the whole gasoline vs alcohol BTU output.



http://www.epi-eng.com/piston_engine_technology/volumetric_efficiency.htm

there's an article on volumetric efficiency , we both know alcohol already carries oxygen with it ,.. this is why per combustion cycle alcohol is quite close to gasoline in terms of power produced...the only way you get a higher volumetric efficiency on gasoline is to force more air into the cylinder by use of a g-loader / turbo etc... there are far more ways to get more air into an engine but those are the two obvious ones and the easiest ones...

So you do acknowledge that you are using racing alcohol ?

The problem with your discussion is that it is both evasive and incomplete on the facts and leads anyone trying to follow it to the wrong conclusions.

Sheesh !

[reply=F1098]So you do acknowledge that you are using racing alcohol ?

What do you mean by racing alcohol? Do you mean methanol, ethanol, or methylated ethanol? All are used for racing and are alcohol. I use both methylated spirits(methylated ethanol) and methanol as fuel for racing four-wheelers and motorcycles. I have used pure ethanol as fuel also, but it is not as easily accessible as methylated spirits, which is just ethanol with a little methanol added to deter people from drinking it. Technically what is added to E10 and E85 gas blends is methylated spirits or adulterated spirits, so people will not drink it.

Quote:

Originally posted by wampers74

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there's an article on volumetric efficiency , we both know alcohol already carries oxygen with it ,.. this is why per combustion cycle alcohol is quite close to gasoline in terms of power produced...the only way you get a higher volumetric efficiency on gasoline is to force more air into the cylinder by use of a g-loader / turbo etc... there are far more ways to get more air into an engine but those are the two obvious ones and the easiest ones...

Ethanol is not close to gasoline in power produced, not on a per unit (i.e. gal, oz, gram) level. Yes ethanol's volumetric efficiency is higher, but it still has fewer BTU/gal than gasoline. Power produced per unit is restricted by the BTU/gal (energy content) of a given fuel. This means that to achieve the same power production, more ethanol must be consumed. Volumetric efficiency determines how much of a fuel charge you can effectively put into a given space. If ethanol's volumetric efficiency was lower than gasoline's and ethanol still had a lower BTU/gal, then you would never fit enough ethanol and air into a given space to produce the same power as gasoline. This is why LPG, LNG, and Hydrogen powered engines can not produce as much power as a gasoline powered engine of the same design and size. LPG, LNG, and Hydrogen not only have lower BTU/gal than gasoline but they also have lower volumetric efficiencies as well.

Quote:

Originally posted by nemisis02

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Ethanol is not close to gasoline in power produced, not on a per unit (i.e. gal, oz, gram) level. Yes ethanol's volumetric efficiency is higher, but it still has fewer BTU/gal than gasoline. Power produced per unit is restricted by the BTU/gal (energy content) of a given fuel. This means that to achieve the same power production, more ethanol must be consumed. Volumetric efficiency determines how much of a fuel charge you can effectively put into a given space. If ethanol's volumetric efficiency was lower than gasoline's and ethanol still had a lower BTU/gal, then you would never fit enough ethanol and air into a given space to produce the same power as gasoline. This is why LPG, LNG, and Hydrogen powered engines can not produce as much power as a gasoline powered engine of the same design and size. LPG, LNG, and Hydrogen not only have lower BTU/gal than gasoline but they also have lower volumetric efficiencies as well.

as you know ethanol has a 49.XX % of oxygen that gets carried by it , so if injected at the same volume as gasoline it doesn't need as much air to make the mixture "ideal" , now we also know this doesn't happen because you get a lower mpg , that means your injecting up to 25% more fuel into each combustion cycle... given that the volumetric efficiency is about 4% higher then gasoline , and at especially hot days this matter then the resulting power per combustion cycle isn't that much lower then gasoline.

im not disputing that ethanol is less powerful at SAME volume injections , however you use more ethanol (E85) as gasoline ... result : less MPG... but because more is injected , plus the alcohol already has 49% oxygen with it... it negates the powerloss over gasoline somewhat , combined with the higher VE , the gap isn't that big as you may think

im not disputing that the BTU/gal is much lower on alcohol , but if ethanol (alcohol) would produce that much less power (-40% if you look at btu/gal) top fuel dragsters would just run gasoline , and no F1098 they don't run alcohol just because they want too...

like i said , alcohol is more consistent all season long , and we can go into specifics , but then we will have to dive into the realm of torque converters stall limits , rpm curves with designated fuels and the likes and i have no intention of doing so as this wasn't a discussion about drag racers , but a gasoline vs ethanol..

Quote:

Originally posted by wampers74

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those little engines have a diaphragm in the carburetor , and ethanol will eat those things for dinner..

Plus purge balls, fuel lines, needle valves with rubber tips. Pretty much anything that's not some form of metal.

Some of the questions that I have been begging to have answered by all of you alcoholics as follows:

Why the variability of qualities in racing alcohol, if it is, as I suggested, custom to the racing industry which produces racing gasoline. Be specific in your answer. We know that all pump fuels vary with the season, I am asking you guys if racing alcohol is also blended to the season. Or what the reason for the variability is

Methanol vs Ethanol racing fuel:

Indy went from M to E about ten years ago. Is Ethanol used in drag racing or are both M and E used ???. Be specific

TIA