“the ultimate evil behind sexuality is the human female.” He added that they “think like beasts” and “should not have the right to choose who to mate and breed with.”

You're throwing a lot of speculation into your "knives are okay" assertion.
You're not rendered unconscious when you get shot.
You have to shoot someone multiple times (generally) to kill someone.
Up to 100m away (depending on drugs and adrenaline) a knife is a better weapon than a gun for taking people down, the 21 foot danger circle formerly used by police is generally considered an inadequate gauge.
And in this situation, he killed as many people with a gun as he did with a knife.

As for melee, there's a reason why knives are used for close work and undercover scenarios. They're more effective in confined (close) areas, such as a melee.

Guns poke holes, knives disconnect the mechanics of movement.

Also, the moon's visibility varies greatly, depending on relative orbit and atmospheric conditions. It's not as black and white as you like to claim.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

You're throwing a lot of speculation into your "knives are okay" assertion.

I never made such an assertion. That's a dishonest characterization of what I actually said.

I never said that being attacked with a knife was desirable or okay. I said that people attacked with knives have a much higher survival rate, and for a great many good reasons. I said that there would unquestionably have been less damage from this person's rampage if he hadn't had a gun, and I think that's a pretty safe statement that someone has to be trying to pick a fight over, or that they're grossly misinterpreting.

I could go through line by line and quibble with you, but okay. I accept that people have gotten shot and not passed out. I also think we're all pretty aware that it's far more likely to suffer a traumatic wound from a firearm rather than from a knife. As you know very well, Bangles, we don't issue our front-line soldiers swords and throwing knives. We issue them rifles and handguns. There's a reason that's the weapon we issue our soldiers.

They're more effective.

This is pretty common knowledge, and even based on hospital reports that's the case. Almost all gunshot wounds go to the hospital, while many stabbings do not - but even if we just count hospital cases, knife wounds are nowhere near as lethal (on a case-by-case basis) as shooting someone.

There are far more people stabbed each year than shot, yet the number of deaths from gun wounds in the US is four times that of those that die from knife wounds.

Gun versus knife deaths.

Bear in mind that many knife wounds probably go unreported, while that's far less likely with a case involving a firearm - so there are probably a bunch of knife victim survivors out there that can't be tracked.

If I were being attacked in an alley, I'd much rather my opponent pull a knife than a firearm. I think that would be the case for almost anyone else as well. If anyone answered differently, I'd question their honesty, their sanity, or both.

If your argument is that a knife is as dangerous to others as a firearm (and it seems this is your argument) then... Good luck with that argument. God be with you - you'll need him.

And no, few things in life are black and white. But they're not as gray as others might try to make it seem, either.

I'm not arguing which is worse, they're both pretty bad given a highly motivated individual.

However, I am saying you shouldn't be dismissing knives, in favor of decrying guns. He killed 3 people with them, but no one is saying "boo knives." It's frighteningly easy to kill someone with a knife. And much more quiet.

In my opinion, you should be upset that an unstable and dangerous person was allowed, even permitted despite his own confessions and police investigations, to kill people. Guns and knives and hammers and sharp sticks and strong hands aren't the problem. It's bad people. Our focus should be on the unstable and hostile individuals.

You own guns. You carry. Your friends and family carry. How many random people have you all killed while walking down the street? It's not the object that's in the wrong.

I didn't need a god in combat, I don't need a god to share words on a porn forum. :P

As for your alley thing: The problem becomes that within a close distance, a bullet travels through a much smaller area of space than the knife does in a slash, or even stabbing attack. And unless the shooter is quite experienced, there's a moment when any hope of hitting a second or third shot is lost through recoil and movement. Whereas knives can be redirected mid-"flight."

That being said, I'd also prefer to encounter a knife, but I think for different reasons. 1- Because I've disarmed people with knives in real life before, and 2- Because disarming someone with a pistol in their hand generally involves removing their trigger finger from the rest of their hand. And as I've mentioned before, I'm not a big fan of causing or seeing undue pain and suffering in people.

The lesson to be learned from this tragic event is not that guns (or knives) are bad. It's that there's holes and gaps that need to be addressed in the legislative and judicial systems, as well as the process for which weapons are acquired. California is one of the most restrictive states with regards to gun laws. But he still "slipped" through. The answer is not found in blanketing the world in a "guns are bad, m'kay?" mentality. There isn't an inherent problem with guns. The problem is misguided and disenfranchised individuals walking, not slipping, through a very lax and incomplete system. We need to correct the legal problems and gaps of investigation and gun purchasing that allow such individuals to buy weapons.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

I'm not arguing which is worse, they're both pretty bad given a highly motivated individual.

True enough.

That said, it's far easier for a motivated yet incompetent person to kill someone with a gun, than with a knife.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

However, I am saying you shouldn't be dismissing knives, in favor of decrying guns.

And here's where what seems to be our only misunderstanding is, I think. You seem to be under the impression I've dismissed knives as a weapon. That's not the case. Can you tell me where you got that impression?

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

The lesson to be learned from this tragic event is not that guns (or knives) are bad. It's that there's holes and gaps that need to be addressed in the legislative and judicial systems, as well as the process for which weapons are acquired. California is one of the most restrictive states with regards to gun laws. But he still "slipped" through. The answer is not found in blanketing the world in a "guns are bad, m'kay?" mentality. There isn't an inherent problem with guns. The problem is misguided and disenfranchised individuals walking, not slipping, through a very lax and incomplete system. We need to correct the legal problems and gaps of investigation and gun purchasing that allow such individuals to buy weapons.

And that I agree with.

Yet I do think firearms are different from most other types of weapons based on their lethality, ease of use without training, ease of ability to regulate them properly, and because firearms don't serve many every-day purposes in life, while things like knives and chainsaws do, and thus would be harder to regulate or to work around if we did. A firearm is not a utility tool - while the others are.

But I do agree that better legislation is needed. I'm a gun supporter myself, but even I acknowledge that I don't need a 15 round clip, and that I don't need to have hollow-point rounds in my home. I also don't mind waiting periods or extensive background checks. I've had to get a background check for almost every job I ever had, and most of those didn't involve a likely loss of life if something went wrong.

I'm also not excluding other weapons from being handled better either - nor am I say that we as a society can't do more to detect and help the mentally ill so that they don't become a threat in the first place.

But that's not the statement I was addressing with my first post. The statement I was addressing was Lia's question about how better regulation of guns would have helped.

She asked, so I answered.

IDK...I think it depends on the situation, the same day of the Sandy Hook shooting, there was a mass stabbing in a Chinese school, 22 students and a teacher were stabbed...all survived. One month ago, at a house party in Calgary, Canada a man stabbed 5 fellow students in a room with 10 other people in it, and all 5 died.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

IDK...I think it depends on the situation, the same day of the Sandy Hook shooting, there was a mass stabbing in a Chinese school, 22 students and a teacher were stabbed...all survived. One month ago, at a house party in Calgary, Canada a man stabbed 5 fellow students in a room with 10 other people in it, and all 5 died.

Certainly there will be some circumstances under which a knife is as lethal, or even more lethal.

But by-and-large if we each had to choose what our assailant had as a tool I think we'd pretty universally choose to face an assailant with a knife - if for no other reason than that we stand a chance of outrunning the assailant with a knife.

Weapons aside, Bangles and I did sort of touch on the idea of coming at this sort of psychopathic violence from a societal standpoint.

Personally, I believe that at some stage we will need to address the inadequacies in our social system that allows for people with these kind of severe mental illnesses to be left without assistance and without oversight to such an extent that they can write 100+ page manifestos, make multiple videos about it, plan it all out, acquire the weapons, plot the crime scene, send a few emails and then execute such an attack catching all of us completely off guard.

At some stage if we really want to prevent these types of things from occurring, we're going to have to address the system we use to aid and protect both the person with the illnesses, and those that might be caused harm if we don't.

As I often remind my friends - the social service agency that supplies food, therapy and a small apartment for that crazy lady down the street isn't doing it to be nice. They're doing it so she doesn't get desperate and come poison their family to try to get into the food in the kitchen. Social services doesn't do that to protect the crazy lady. Social services does that to protect us from the crazy lady.

If we don't want to continue to be victims of these types of attacks, we're going to have to find a better way to detect and support the people who suffer from the types of mental illnesses that result in these attacks.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

And here's where what seems to be our only misunderstanding is, I think. You seem to be under the impression I've dismissed knives as a weapon. That's not the case. Can you tell me where you got that impression?

[...]

But that's not the statement I was addressing with my first post. The statement I was addressing was Lia's question about how better regulation of guns would have helped.

She asked, so I answered.

My issue (although it might not actually have necessarily been one) was with how you addressed Lia. She asked how better gun regulation would have helped, and you proceeded to talk about how you can maybe outrun knife wielders, and how the shooter wouldn't have been able to kill himself without a gun, and that whole melee thing--which I vehemently disagree with. A knife will (almost) always be geometrically more dangerous the closer you are to each other than a gun.) None of which actually addressed how better regulation would have kept a gun out of his hands.

As for high capacity magazines- I don't see a reason why they shouldn't exist for purchase, with proper legislation and investigation. They could just as easily go along with their own (perhaps different) background check. There should be different legislation allowing individuals to possess "high capacity" magazines, perhaps.

I don't put much faith in the "If they can only fire 10 rounds before reloading, then they can't kill as quickly" argument. I can drop to a knee and change an AR magazine in less than a second, and I can change a pistol magazine without a noticeable break in my controlled fire. Give someone half a day in their room with two magazines for practice, and they will be as quick or quicker than me. Magazine size has no relation to "killing." If they have 10 round magazines, they will train for 10 round magazines. It's not the size of the magazine that matters, it's the speed of the exchange and muscle memory. I'd even potentially suggest that a smaller magazine would be more intuitive to direct into the mag well because there would be less material to direct accurately.

And an obvious counter to that: "If you can change magazines so quickly, then why do you need 'high capacity' magazines?" I'd say, 1- In a range situation, it provides for more focus and time for shooting. You're focusing on your training, working on accuracy, and usually under a time constraint at a range. The less time you spend loading magazines at a range, the less money you spend on fees and more time you spend enjoying your hobby. A hostile shooter won't enact a plan with a single 10-round magazine and stop to reload it. And 2- In a self/home defense situation- you are going to be panicked and nervous. Your goal isn't to be engaged long enough to reload with reduced motor control. Whereas, a hostile shooter will have prepared himself mentally hours, days, and weeks in advance for shooting and reloading, a defense situation will come unexpectedly.

As for hollow-points- That's for people other than me to debate about. Very few engagements are resolved in single shots. So the differences, in my opinion, are negated. In a self/home defense position, shooting someone 3-6 times with FMJ will result in just as dead, or injured, of a person as if you shot them 3-6 times with hollow points. It's not like you'd place rounds in separate and distant parts of the body, so each bullet, regardless of design, will travel through the same general area.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

Personally, I believe that at some stage we will need to address the inadequacies in our social system that allows for people with these kind of severe mental illnesses to be left without assistance and without oversight to such an extent that they can write 100+ page manifestos, make multiple videos about it, plan it all out, acquire the weapons, plot the crime scene, send a few emails and then execute such an attack catching all of us completely off guard.

He was also investigated and cleared by the Police regarding allegations of his intent, prior to his attack.

Quote:

Originally posted by Tarquin

...

Certainly there will be some circumstances under which a knife is as lethal, or even more lethal.

But by-and-large if we each had to choose what our assailant had as a tool I think we'd pretty universally choose to face an assailant with a knife - if for no other reason than that we stand a chance of outrunning the assailant with a knife.

Oh...don't think that I'm pro gun from my comments, because I'm not. I think guns exist for one reason, and only one reason, and that is to kill people, and anyone who thinks otherwise is delusional.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

...

He was also investigated and cleared by the Police regarding allegations of his intent, prior to his attack.

And saw at least 3 psychiatrists/therapists in the last few years.

The whole system failed in this case.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

...

He was also investigated and cleared by the Police regarding allegations of his intent, prior to his attack.

The police acknowledged after the fact (it's in a news story today) that they had been told about some of his videos on YouTube, but failed - for whatever reason - to follow up on those and take them into account when evaluating him a month prior to the shooting.

Quote:

Originally posted by Bangledesh

...

and that whole melee thing--which I vehemently disagree with. A knife will (almost) always be geometrically more dangerous the closer you are to each other than a gun.) None of which actually addressed how better regulation would have kept a gun out of his hands.

We'll pretty much have to agree to disagree on this. It takes far more skill to use a knife effectively than a gun, and a moron with a gun is far more dangerous at 10 feet than a moron with a knife.

As I said before, I'm certain there are circumstances, such as when one is locked in a closet with an attacker, that a knife might actually be a better weapon than a gun. But those are the exception, not the norm.

I've also already offered a link to the records on the number of stab wounds in the nation. Far more people are stabbed each year than shot, yet more than four times as many deaths come from firearms as from knife wounds.

You should feel free to disagree with me on the general statement that knives are less lethal than guns, but that means you're also disagreeing with mountains of evidence from hospitals, from law enforcement agencies worldwide that issue their employees guns instead of knives, and every military unit in the world that has the financial capacity to purchase a firearm.

I acknowledge your stance. I don't disagree that a knife is a dangerous weapon in its own right, but I made a statement that guns - especially in untrained hands - are far more dangerous than knives, and I stand by that view, the evidence, and the experts around the world that share that view with me.

Quote:

Originally posted by Sugarpie

...

And saw at least 3 psychiatrists/therapists in the last few years.

The whole system failed in this case.

This.

Several of his friends (or people who knew him at least) saw the videos and told the police. The parents were in contact with the police. The therapist tried to contact police. Some of these folks did it just a few minutes before the attacks began, but others had reached out to the police a month in advance.

Quote:

Rodger's parents were disturbed by the videos, family friends said. Mental health professionals put them in touch with the Sheriff's Department, and in April, deputies visited Rodger at his apartment, the same one where he would soon stab and kill three men to launch his rampage.

Quote:

Just three weeks before his murderous rampage, Rodger met sheriff's deputies at his door.

Relatives had seen Rodger's threatening Internet posts, and they notified a social worker, who alerted police.

But apparently the police responding to Rodger's and evaluating him had no knowledge of the Internet posts or videos.

And:

Quote:

There's no indication they were aware that Rodger had legally purchased three handguns and ammunition.

Cops didn't know about the videos

When police were asked about this set of videos and whether or not they asked Elliot Rodgers about them in April. The police said they didn't ask about the videos, because the police officers interviewing Rodgers at the time were not aware of the videos - despite that direct family members and the therapists had contacted police about them before hand.

It's a system problem. It's a systemic problem. When we can more fully address it, we'll see less headlines about it. When treatments and options for people that suffer from these kinds of mental illnesses is stronger and more capable of supporting them to prevent these types of violent acts, we'll also read less headlines about it.

But these have been our actions in the past, and these have been our results in the past. If we want knew results, we need to take new actions.

Its a tragedy that it takes a major crisis to open some peoples eyes.

After reading through quite a bit of the manifesto, it really seems like this kid was a huge dick. He's incredibly greedy and self centered. He calls everyone "idiots" and "morons" and sees others only as items to make himself feel better. He wants to have a girlfriend so everyone will respect him more. He doesn't care to make friends with people because there's nothing they can offer him. He makes numerous references to designer clothing he wears and luxury autos he drives. The dude was a selfish asshole. No wonder he had no friends and girls wouldn't go out with him.

I would have not gone out with him either, I hate being around people with an attitude like his...

Exactly, maybe he should have tried being friendly. That's usually how I make friends and meet girls.

I don't think the son of a bitch was insane, just a spoiled brat that is meaner than hell. Never been denied anything from his parents - expected women to do the same for his worthless ass.

Quote:

Originally posted by Davey45

He makes numerous references to designer clothing he wears and luxury autos he drives.

Well... this is awkward.