Man on Texas' death row writes moving letter to Gawker

Quote:

Originally posted by Topsail

... You can of course say anything you wish counselor here or any locale. I am stating that my country is one of laws and until repealed or declared unconstitutional all laws are to be enforced. I rest and see no need for further dis-course on this case.

I don't know if you're trying to imply that Sweden is a country of no laws. Not that it matters, since I practice in the US. Enforcing laws is the norm. But again, that doesn't mean that all laws are good and shouldn't be discussed for their usefulness/appropriateness, etc. If laws didn't change and evolve, we wouldn't have progress, such as the civil rights act of 1964. Or more current changes to prevent predatory lending. Or any number of changes to laws that have made this country and others better.

Again, no one is arguing that the court didn't apply the law in effect correctly. You are literally arguing with yourself on this one.

Davey - maybe I'm missing something, but I don't think jasper was just trying to garner attention and trying to get published. I thought that letters were sought from a bunch of death row inmates into prison culture and life on death row. His response was interesting and gawker sought more information.

I think this guy's letter is interesting, not for the justifications he tries to provide for himself, which seems to be the only thing people on here are focusing on, but the broader points and insights into the system itself. He makes good points, and dismissing what he says because of the "source" does no good. You will never get the insiders view of death row without having a less than savory source. Except for the few who were wrongly convicted and then released.

But anyway, this thread has gone about as expected. Less personal attacks, but the content hasn't been much better. Time for me to bow out.

Quote:

Originally posted by kylecook

I think this guy's letter is interesting, not for the justifications he tries to provide for himself, which seems to be the only thing people on here are focusing on, but the broader points and insights into the system itself. He makes good points, and dismissing what he says because of the "source" does no good. You will never get the insiders view of death row without having a less than savory source

Well, at least one person understood what I was getting at.

Sure, my initial post was a bit inflammatory, but I really don't know what more-civil terms than "goon" I can call people who post things like this:

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

...

Hang him in the streets. I will bring the beer and snacks

Believe in the death penalty, or don't, whatever. But in my opinion, taking pleasure in the death of any person, no matter their deeds, rather than seeing their death as tragic, is about as gruesome and repugnant a sentiment I can imagine.

Quote:

Originally posted by jerryseagrahm

Death Penalty Goon you better check yourself my friend because i am one of those death penalty goons
myself and many others like me served a dealth penalty for (limpwristed nuttless i am right you are wrong assbags) like you
its called being a soldier and going to war so you can spout your drivel we didnt commit crimes like the person you are so eager to defend and yet
when we returned home people just like you treated us like crap so check who you crusade for and the way you do it

*sigh* One of those, huh?

It is possible to be in favor of the death penalty and yet not take pleasure in that death. I read Ray Jasper's letter, and yes, at first, it was moving. But then I learned a bit about him and his crimes. I read the response from the victim's brother, and I find that far more moving. Jasper's letter sets out some valid points (unfair jail sentences, racism, poverty, etc). But there are of course valid responses to all of them. But more so, none of those issues have anything to do with Jasper's situation. So what is this thread about? The justice system as a whole, or the fact that Ray Jasper is about to be executed. They arent the same. Ray Jasper deserves his sentence. I take no pleasure whatsoever in saying that. But I find his letter completely disengenuous. That conclusion, which is my opinion only of course, is best summed up in his conclusion that he "didnt kill anyone." He thought up, planned, organized the robbery and death of that man. He executed the plan, he cut that innocent man's throat. His rationalization that he didnt kill anyone is based on the fact that it was his buddies, there on his command, that began stabbing the man and it was one of their blows that stopped the man's heart before he bled out from the slit throat. This man, to this day, takes no responsibilty for this murder. He still blames everyone else.

I respect those that are against the death penalty. I understand the reasoning of most. I just disagree. But I do not respect the tactics of some who argue against the death penalty in a very dishonest manner. Ray Jasper will be put to death. And that is a sentence and fate that he, and he alone, is responsible for. If he is indeed remourseful, it is only due to the fact of his impending doom. If he is remorseful, i feel sympathy for him and i pray for him. Did this man commit this horrific crime? Yes he did. No one persecuted him unjustly. I encourage folks to read the response of the victim's brother, a man opposed to the death penalty. Not because I want to use him to support my position, because he doesn't support my position. Read his statement to understand the context of this upcoming execution. Its not about "slavery", or poverty, or racism, or politics. Its about a shattered family, and their search for justice.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

...

Well, at least one person understood what I was getting at.

Sure, my initial post was a bit inflammatory, but I really don't know what more-civil terms than "goon" I can call people who post things like this:

...

Believe in the death penalty, or don't, whatever. But in my opinion, taking pleasure in the death of any person, no matter their deeds, rather than seeing their death as tragic, is about as gruesome and repugnant a sentiment I can imagine.

I posted that AFTER you called members "goons" in the opening post of said thread. You set the tone of the thread by the personal attack on members who are for the death penalty. I just made a protest post in response

Quote:

Originally posted by lynn-23

It is possible to be in favor of the death penalty and yet not take pleasure in that death. I read Ray Jasper's letter, and yes, at first, it was moving. But then I learned a bit about him and his crimes. I read the response from the victim's brother, and I find that far more moving. Jasper's letter sets out some valid points (unfair jail sentences, racism, poverty, etc). But there are of course valid responses to all of them. But more so, none of those issues have anything to do with Jasper's situation. So what is this thread about? The justice system as a whole, or the fact that Ray Jasper is about to be executed. They arent the same. Ray Jasper deserves his sentence. I take no pleasure whatsoever in saying that. But I find his letter completely disengenuous. That conclusion, which is my opinion only of course, is best summed up in his conclusion that he "didnt kill anyone." He thought up, planned, organized the robbery and death of that man. He executed the plan, he cut that innocent man's throat. His rationalization that he didnt kill anyone is based on the fact that it was his buddies, there on his command, that began stabbing the man and it was one of their blows that stopped the man's heart before he bled out from the slit throat. This man, to this day, takes no responsibilty for this murder. He still blames everyone else.

I respect those that are against the death penalty. I understand the reasoning of most. I just disagree. But I do not respect the tactics of some who argue against the death penalty in a very dishonest manner. Ray Jasper will be put to death. And that is a sentence and fate that he, and he alone, is responsible for. If he is indeed remourseful, it is only due to the fact of his impending doom. If he is remorseful, i feel sympathy for him and i pray for him. Did this man commit this horrific crime? Yes he did. No one persecuted him unjustly. I encourage folks to read the response of the victim's brother, a man opposed to the death penalty. Not because I want to use him to support my position, because he doesn't support my position. Read his statement to understand the context of this upcoming execution. Its not about "slavery", or poverty, or racism, or politics. Its about a shattered family, and their search for justice.

Very well worded Lynn, and I totally understand and agree with you that Jasper is guilty of the crimes he was charged with, in fact, I might go a step further and charge him with first degree murder. However, I don't support he death penalty, I don't believe it solves anything. I believe its a tool used by a justice system that doesn't know what else to do, a system thats broken. At one point in time, the death penalty was a legit deterrent, but it isn't any more, its a tool of revenge, plain and simple. Even the letter from the victims brother suggests that; the brother is against capital punishment, but his personal feelings have made him okay with Jaspers death. People say that it costs a fortune to execute someone, and they're right, so why do we try something new with that money? Why, rather than implementing a punishment from the stone ages, don't we look into different rehabilitation programs, therapy, and educational tools? I'm not saying that every person can be saved, and turned into a productive member of society, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't serve a sentence, but wouldn't an end result of having a rehabilitated person be better than another corpse?

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

...

Well, at least one person understood what I was getting at.

Sure, my initial post was a bit inflammatory, but I really don't know what more-civil terms than "goon" I can call people who post things like this:

...

Believe in the death penalty, or don't, whatever. But in my opinion, taking pleasure in the death of any person, no matter their deeds, rather than seeing their death as tragic, is about as gruesome and repugnant a sentiment I can imagine.

There those who would say all/most of EL's posts are "a bit inflammatory."

In this particular case, I don't believe in rehabilitation as I don't believe that this man can ever be a productive member of society. If you ever get a chance to talk to someone who has done prison time or someone who works in a prison, you will hear stories about the truly terrible people there. I'm not saying everyone in jail is a bad person. Most aren't. Most can learn and be rehabilitated. Some can't. Some people are evil. Some people will literally stab you if it will somehow make themselves feel a little better. These people use manipulation to get what they want and will not hesitate to sell out a "friend". Thankfully, I haven't been to prison. I have close family members who have and I know a guy who worked Miami Dade Corrections for years. You hear about people who maybe don't deserve to die but never deserve freedom.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

...Anyway, KyleCook was right, this was destined to fail as a thread because people either didn't care or want to actually think about some of the real issues the guy raised.

EL, I think this kind of thread fails because too many people engage their emotions before their reason even though justice isn't supposed to work based on emotions. That and people who can't even make the simple difference between punishment and vengeance...

Quote:

Originally posted by Topsail

... There those who would say all/most of EL's posts are "a bit inflammatory."

Those people would be wrong. I have nearly 40,000 posts on this forum. The overwhelming majority of them are benign, and have nothing to do with politics, religion, or anything else contentious.

Quote:

Originally posted by omuh

...
EL, I think this kind of thread fails because too many people engage their emotions before their reason even though justice isn't supposed to work based on emotions. That and people who can't even make the simple difference between punishment and vengeance...

Yes, and as I said, part of it is probably the way I worded the initial post, but I only do that after having been through these debates with these people before, where some folks always get all happy and excited about the prospect of someone who did something bad being murdered.

Quote:

Originally posted by NightCruiser

...


I posted that AFTER you called members "goons" in the opening post of said thread. You set the tone of the thread by the personal attack on members who are for the death penalty. I just made a protest post in response

That particular post, yes.

But all of these were posted well before this thread existed:

https://whatboyswant.com/forums/read/161425/Mexico_Tells_Texas_Not_To_Execute_one_of_Their_Citizens.html/limit:10#postNumber4

https://whatboyswant.com/forums/read/161425/Mexico_Tells_Texas_Not_To_Execute_one_of_Their_Citizens.html/limit:10#postNumber7

https://whatboyswant.com/forums/read/161425/Mexico_Tells_Texas_Not_To_Execute_one_of_Their_Citizens.html/page:4/limit:10#postNumber33

https://whatboyswant.com/forums/read/161425/Mexico_Tells_Texas_Not_To_Execute_one_of_Their_Citizens.html/page:5/limit:10#postNumber43

https://whatboyswant.com/forums/read/161425/Mexico_Tells_Texas_Not_To_Execute_one_of_Their_Citizens.html/page:6/limit:10#postNumber54

https://whatboyswant.com/forums/read/161425/Mexico_Tells_Texas_Not_To_Execute_one_of_Their_Citizens.html/page:11/limit:10#postNumber103

etc.

Oh, and countless posts by moss that he deleted.

So, yeah, people who respond like that to the killing of people, even if sanctioned by the state, are goonish in my opinion. My comment was directed toward anyone on this forum who holds those kinds of opinions, not any specific person in particular. And from past experience I know that lots of people like that frequent the site.

Quote:

Originally posted by EricLindros

...

Those people would be wrong. I have nearly 40,000 posts on this forum. The overwhelming majority of them are benign, and have nothing to do with politics, religion, or anything else contentious.

...

Yes, and as I said, part of it is probably the way I worded the initial post, but I only do that after having been through these debates with these people before, where some folks always get all happy and excited about the prospect of someone who did something bad being murdered.

No EL, the application of the death penalty is not murder. Murder is, however, cutting a victim's throat and holding him down so an accomplish can administer fatal wounds.

Quote:

Originally posted by Topsail

... No EL, the application of the death penalty is not murder. Murder is, however, cutting a victim's throat and holding him down so an accomplish can administer fatal wounds.

Explain to me how its not murder?

SP that's rather easy I think. He sees murder by the state to be legitimate....and probably consistent with the "eye for an eye" philosophy. Frankly, I consider it to be playing to the mob in the worst possible way. Smacks of burning witches, and justice by slaughter in the Roman Coliseum. And everyone goes home having seen justice by circus murder ?. Much attention is spent on giving the victim's family some "closure". Which is exactly what....this notion of closure ?

I don't get it..this endless call for blood revenge as the only answer either by the state or for the families. ( Maybe we should change the law so that the families get to murder the accused criminal. Maybe we have been cheating the families out of the real satisfaction of having blood justice on their hands ? The criminal idiocy of the murderer that needs to be matched by society ? Amazing stuff, this notion of revenge=justice.

I debated with myself whether to respond here or not. Finally i decided I needed to, though I didn't want to. By the way, SugarPie, I thank you for your comments. But I need to respond to F1098. There is no "mob justice" behind the death penalty in the U.S. This prisoner was not dragged out of the local jail and hanged or shot. The crime was investigated, probable cause obtained, reviewed by a court,, he was arrested, an attorney provided (private funded and very good), the benefit or discovery allowed, a trial by jury, and years of very substantial and thorought appeals. That is not mob justice, nor circus murder. "Murder" is generally defined as the unlawful killing of another human. This excludes the soldier who kills in battle under orders , the home owner defending herself from the burglar, the police officer shooting the hostage taker. And it excludes the execution, authorized by law, and applied by the court. It does not exclude the criminal who slits the throat of an innocent man. I am perplexed by your attack upon victim's famiies. They did not ask to be in that position. Their situation was forced upon them by the murderer. They have every right to see that the law is carried out. The vengence vs. justice, vs revenge argument seems pointless to me. Justice can be what ever each individual sees it as. Why is vengence not valid? Why is death not just another punishment? Do not confuse the disgusting ramblings of some commentators lusting for blood for the workings of the justice system. They are seperate. No prisoner on the face of this Earth receives more due process and more review than a prisoner in the U.S. facing a death sentence. I appriciate the honest debate of capital punishment. It makes us better. But that argument must be honest.

I agree lynn! The death penalty process bends over backwards to make sure it gets things right. The big flaw is it takes so long to serve justice. The murderers get to live a lot longer than their victims. I believe in 2 appeals at the most. Sentence lasting no more than 2 years. Then is it time to serve Justice and vengeance. Time to send them to God for Spiritual Justice. Someone who plans a murder. Someone who murders for financial gain. Random senseless murders. Can't be rehabbed. Don't deserve to be supported by the public for life. Don't deserve to breath while the victims can't breath. Don't deserve to have a chance to escape or hurt others in prison. Strange how these anti death penalty people don't have more concern and compassion for the Victims. Just sickening.

For the longest time I thought EL was one of the funniest craziest persons around but now you sir are acting no better than the hatemongers who conspire against people everyday because some of us think different or act different you resolved to name calling to express your point and I myself allowed you to drag me into your hatred spewing I am truely ashamed of us both, As a native born Texan I found your remark offensive and should have simply said so and I apologize for being obnoxious but you sir I refuse to believe someone who is responsible for such hilarious post has to resort to name calling to express his point and to those who agreed with your method or mine I say we are all acting childish and need to stop it and go back to the reason we are members of this sight admiring beautiful women and let those who are the true hatemongers be about what do as we likeminded adults join to keep them from taking our freedoms and infecting us with thier hate signed Jerry L. Seagrahm

I am one of the funniest persons around, bro. I just happen to be a funny guy who thinks the death penalty is morally wrong, overly expensive, ineffective, racist, classist, and prone to error (which, since you can't unkill a person, is kind of a big problem).

Also, you might want to invest in some periods or something. Your giant run-on sentence is difficult to read.

Quote:

Originally posted by lynn-23

I debated with myself whether to respond here or not. Finally i decided I needed to, though I didn't want to. By the way, SugarPie, I thank you for your comments. But I need to respond to F1098. There is no "mob justice" behind the death penalty in the U.S. This prisoner was not dragged out of the local jail and hanged or shot. The crime was investigated, probable cause obtained, reviewed by a court,, he was arrested, an attorney provided (private funded and very good), the benefit or discovery allowed, a trial by jury, and years of very substantial and thorought appeals. That is not mob justice, nor circus murder. "Murder" is generally defined as the unlawful killing of another human. This excludes the soldier who kills in battle under orders , the home owner defending herself from the burglar, the police officer shooting the hostage taker. And it excludes the execution, authorized by law, and applied by the court. It does not exclude the criminal who slits the throat of an innocent man. I am perplexed by your attack upon victim's famiies. They did not ask to be in that position. Their situation was forced upon them by the murderer. They have every right to see that the law is carried out. The vengence vs. justice, vs revenge argument seems pointless to me. Justice can be what ever each individual sees it as. Why is vengence not valid? Why is death not just another punishment? Do not confuse the disgusting ramblings of some commentators lusting for blood for the workings of the justice system. They are seperate. No prisoner on the face of this Earth receives more due process and more review than a prisoner in the U.S. facing a death sentence. I appriciate the honest debate of capital punishment. It makes us better. But that argument must be honest.

The problem I have with the death penalty, plain and simple is...mistakes are made. Maybe they aren't made often, but innocent people have been put to death, and in my opinion 1 innocent person executed is 1 too many. When we have the funds and the ability to institute other non traditional types of rehabilitation that have shown success in other parts of the world, and we choose not to institute them into our own justice system, then that shows me that capital punishment is only in place as a tool of revenge, not justice. Its in place to make the victims families feel better about a seriously flawed and fucked up justice system. They might as well be saying, "we don't know what else to do with this person....sooo ummm...lets kill him?" When in reality, if we really wanted to, there are options that may turn the accused into a productive non violent member of society. But that doesn't make anyone feel better.